Doug Knecht - Posted - 12/15/2012:  19:29:55

I have a friend who was taking lessons from someone on mandolin, and after years of work the teacher sort of gave up on how to teach her.  She had a mental block learning, and he had a mental block teaching.  Both are acceptable, but what he implied next broke her heart.  He didn't say it outright, but implied "You aren't a musician, and that's why you are not learning."

She used to take the mandolin everywhere.  From friends' houses to house, out to the park, in bed if she couldn't sleep.  She was excited about the mandolin.  And she was learning slowly.  Today she can't get that false belief system out of her heart and head.

Never ever discourage a beginner. 

I want to denounce that false belief tonight.  If you are believing that belief tonight, and are discouraged, keep at it.  You will find happiness pickin' the mandolin, or guitar/banjo whatever.  Don't for a minute believe you are not a musician.  God gave you enough desire in your ears to enjoy the music, therefore you ARE a musician.  And you will be able to play to a level where you are happy and excited about pickin'. 

Edited by - Doug Knecht on 12/16/2012 15:21:56

slarkin - Posted - 12/16/2012:  05:49:02

Great post.  Most of us will never become Sam Bush or Ned L.  It takes me a long time to learn new techniques or complex tunes, but I don't care.  I am not doing this for a living, thank goodness.  I play for my own amazement and have fun.  I play with the full range of pickers and singers, good and not so good, but what is good anywa?.  Good is what you enjoy.   

Texasbanjo - Posted - 12/16/2012:  05:52:17

What a shame that there are teachers who would say something like that. 

You CAN learn to  play an instrument if you just keep at it.  Tell your girlfriend that most teachers are willing to help in any way that they can and if they can't teach a student, they will say it's the teacher's fault and send them to someone else who hopefully can get them past the block they have.

Buttonwood Bob - Posted - 12/16/2012:  10:20:43

As a teacher for 45 years, but not a music teacher like my grandmother and mother, I have enjoyed playing stringed instruments for even longer.  I learned early, that students can almost overnight progress exponentially with the right teacher and context, as with the right teacher and music .  There is very little glory in learning Twinkle, Twinkle... Always look to the curriculum; not the student.  I admire the poster's girlfriend, and her boyfriend.  There is much happiness ahead for both of them.  She may never quite forget the pain of what was told her, but my hope is that she will never have reason to recall it except perhaps with a chuckle.   I was "touched" by the post.

Edited by - Buttonwood Bob on 12/16/2012 10:23:13

Ben Venuti - Posted - 12/16/2012:  13:22:11

Granted it's a rude A hole of a thing to say ,particularly from someone that is teaching you and I suppose you are paying them, but then "musician" is a relative term. (Track down Miles Davis' comments about Steve Miller --which couldn't be repeated here.) Liking music or even playing an instrument doesn't necessarily make you a "Musician" from my point of view. It doesn't mean quit trying or stop enjoying playing but one can put a great deal of time into this and still come out of it not being a "musician." Most of us do not! All of us can get some enjoyment out of the pursuit however. The term " Musician" can and maybe should be reserved,like the term "Doctor" or " Artist" or "Professor" for those that reach a certain level of expertise, if for no other reason than to show a level of respect. It shouldn't be something that one comes by easily unless your a Sierra Hull type wunderkind. We have evolved terms like "talent" to explain this. We are after all, and unfortunately, not equal in spite of what the Constitution says. I will never be Jethro Burns no matter how hard I work at it! A tough reality for me. A teacher does have some responsibility to inform a student why they think they're not learning. To say to someone that you believe that they will never be a musician isn't such a bad thing to say if the person receiving that information has a realistic idea of what a REAL musician actually is!
The teacher can hopefully show some tact and do it in a way that doesn't hurt feelings. This goes on all the time in real life. Someone has to tell someone not to give up their day job or maybe they are not in the right job or that you'll never be a surgeon because your all thumbs. If for example one is tone deaf they'll be the last to know --why? because they're tone deaf! Hard to hear,so to speak, if it's you, but important to know if you want to join a choir or something. With that said one shouldn't let the comments of one fool shape your life.
Back in the old CCCP, I read, if someone showed some promise at music at a young age that they would be fast tracked into a music program but at some point they would examine and study the skeletal structure of your hands and if by formula you didn't meet criteria they would determine that you would never achieve greatness. They dropped you and you ended up on the Collective carrying tractors or something.
. This would of course have been wrong and would have resulted in Andre Segovia, who had hands like a bricklayer, being a bricklayer.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 12/16/2012:  13:25:56

Well, some people tend to "blame" for their failures. It being easier to look at anothers failure rather than their own. Not all students learn in the same manner and at the same speed. A teacher will find a way for their students to learn. Just because someone is teaching does not necessarily make them a teacher. R/

Andah1Andah2 - Posted - 12/16/2012:  16:08:26

You know, I was at a performance at our high school last week and a student was playing a lovely piece on the violin. Afterwards, a comment that a well-intended person made was "Wow, isn't she talented?" I thought about that, I am beginning to dislike that word "talented". It seems to me that we are quick to label someone who excels at something as "talented". I believe that by making this statement you are establishing two points.

1. That in order to play that well, someone needs to have some inborn skill. This takes away the countless hours of learning and disregards the eternity of practice that was done. It almost discounts the term "dedication". Didn't Dr. Suzuki once say something like "Talent is knowledge plus 10,00 times"? I think there are different levels of aptitude, but this is a small portion of the whole pie.

2. This also then implies that other "lesser" people might not even bother trying to be that good because they were not born with that talent. This also keeps a lot of people from even trying to accomplish difficult or time-consuming skills. I believe another main point of Dr. Suzuki was that anyone can achieve some level of success if they put in the proper time and training.

I like to identify someone as an accomplished player rather than a talented one. Don't even get me started on "Gifted and talented" programs.

Kristibob - Posted - 12/16/2012:  17:09:21

Ben, I must respectfully disagree about your use of the term "musician" being lumped in there with doctor and lawyer and the like. Anyone making music is a musician...and it doesn't matter if you're playing a comb with a piece of waxed paper or a concerto at Carnegie Hall.  The simple act of playing music makes one a musician...it doesn't make one a "professional" musician...tack that word on before "musician" and I would agree with keeping company with a doctor and lawyer...a professional makes money with music, while all of us "amateur" musicians just play for the joy of it. I'm a musician..have been since I was little..started on piano when I was five...and I always will be, regardless of my level of ability...heart and desire make a musician..not ability or getting paid for it.  My country band got paid for doing gigs for several years back home in Oregon...I sang lead and did rhythm guitar (badly..but it was fun)...those gigs were county fairs and American Legion events and weddings....so I've made a wee bit of money with music and I made a wee bit teaching piano for quite a long time.  I was a musician long before I ever made money with it...heart is what makes a musician...a love of  music is what matters..not the level at which one performs. I'll never make money of any kind with music again, but I'm still a musician...I still have the heart and desire and the ability to learn new things...Doug's girl is as much a musician as anyone else who attempts to play an instrument.

Ben Venuti - Posted - 12/16/2012:  20:42:16

Someone listens to music on the radio,they like music -does that make them a musician? An appreciation for music is not being a musician anymore than an appreciation for art makes you an artist.

I did not say anything about making money as having anything what so ever to do with it. Somehow, it seems that many of the musicians/bands, etc. that I truly hate show up to the gig in their private jets(Kanye please stand up!) while the bands I truly love are more than likely going to show up in a 1985 primer painted Econoline! Steve Miller is laughing to the bank over Miles Davis' comments about him although, I for one, completely agree with Miles and probably made some similar comment regarding Steve Miller before I ever heard the Miles comments. Talent,skill, musicality don't necessarily equate to earnings and there are lots and lots of great musicians that don't perform publicly or they make their money as house painter.

The simple act of trying to make music does not make you a musician. Drawing on a piece of paper does not qualify someone to consider themselves an artist. My arguing with a cop over a parking ticket does not make me anymore a lawyer than putting a bandaid on a skinned knee makes me a doctor. My one year old Grandson spends endless amounts of time pounding the piano and strumming his ukelele and is already at least as accomplished as I am on my dobro. Is he therefore a musician? There is background, either inherent(talent) or earned (fricking endless hours of practice) and a high level of understanding and ability that would qualify someone to use those terms to describe themselves that way. Another term we use is "inspired" which I guess means that someone plays so well that they are above, or at least nearly so, our comprehension. We,on the other hand, I guess,or so it seems, can use those terms to describe someone else and then we can argue over who's right. Attempting to play is not the same as playing is what I am getting at. Now to say that she is a STUDENT of music or an instrument, well that's different.

Edited by - Ben Venuti on 12/16/2012 20:44:42

Jim Yates - Posted - 12/16/2012:  21:53:06

I listened to the clip of you and your girlfriend playing on banjo and mandolin.  Anyone who can play as well as she can definitely should not sell her mandolin.She has the ability to get much enjoyment from playing and to give enjoyment to others.  I would be happy if all of my students could play as well. 

seancannon - Posted - 12/17/2012:  11:16:13

i am never going to be a nigel gatherer or a simon mayor and i know my technique is all wrong but i also don't claim to be a musician and have no intention of playing my mandolins in front of anyone except my missus and young one but the enjoyment i get from learning a tune and the relaxation i get from playing is second to none , dont let anyone take away her enjoyment because of their failings as a teacher and you be the encouragement needed to carry on regardless

Duffy24 - Posted - 12/17/2012:  17:06:27

As a public school teacher for 29 years I know the damage that a negative comment can have on a student.  The teacher can be a total washout, but that comment can eat away at the student. I began playing mandolin about a year ago and well into my AARP days. I found a great instructor who is always supportive even though I have doubts from time to time.  He is even getting me to sing along while I play (a real tragedy for anyone within ear shot). The point is that I can't wait to get home to pick up;the mando.  I play is for a bit several times throughout the day.There are weeks where I feel that I am regressing and them I jump ahead in my skills. My goal is to one day play in public (probably won't happen) but it gives me enjoyment. Don't let some jerk take that away from you.

RJM - Posted - 12/22/2012:  03:18:38

I agree; most of us will never be world famous but if it's something you enjoy then it's wrong to discourage someone.  Having heart for something is just as important as knowing the mechanics of how to play.  Playing and practice are important, even professionals make mistakes and even they need to practice.  The Beatles were also told by a recording company that 'guitar music was on the way out' and the recording company didn't like their sound.  Reportedly, Elvis was fired by a manager from the Grand Ole Opry after one performance and told that he ought to go back to driving a truck because he was going nowhere.  Even famous people have been laughed at, rejected and turned away but believing in yourself is just as important.  I hope she gets over the pain and starts to play again.

One of my wife's favorite songs is Six String Orchestra by Harry Chapin.  It's a song about how he can't play guitar and people keep telling him to quit playing but he doesn't care, he enjoys it and dreams of someday being a star so he keeps on trying.  Hopefully your friend will adopt the same attitude and keep on with her mandolin. 

rdenronden.magix.net/public/

m - Posted - 12/27/2012:  11:47:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ben Venuti

Granted it's a rude A hole of a thing to say ,particularly from someone that is teaching you and I suppose you are paying them, but then "musician" is a relative term. (Track down Miles Davis' comments about Steve Miller --which couldn't be repeated here.) Liking music or even playing an instrument doesn't necessarily make you a "Musician" from my point of view. It doesn't mean quit trying or stop enjoying playing but one can put a great deal of time into this and still come out of it not being a "musician." Most of us do not! All of us can get some enjoyment out of the pursuit however. The term " Musician" can and maybe should be reserved,like the term "Doctor" or " Artist" or "Professor" for those that reach a certain level of expertise, if for no other reason than to show a level of respect. It shouldn't be something that one comes by easily unless your a Sierra Hull type wunderkind. We have evolved terms like "talent" to explain this. We are after all, and unfortunately, not equal in spite of what the Constitution says. I will never be Jethro Burns no matter how hard I work at it! A tough reality for me. A teacher does have some responsibility to inform a student why they think they're not learning. To say to someone that you believe that they will never be a musician isn't such a bad thing to say if the person receiving that information has a realistic idea of what a REAL musician actually is!

The teacher can hopefully show some tact and do it in a way that doesn't hurt feelings. This goes on all the time in real life. Someone has to tell someone not to give up their day job or maybe they are not in the right job or that you'll never be a surgeon because your all thumbs. If for example one is tone deaf they'll be the last to know --why? because they're tone deaf! Hard to hear,so to speak, if it's you, but important to know if you want to join a choir or something. With that said one shouldn't let the comments of one fool shape your life.

Back in the old CCCP, I read, if someone showed some promise at music at a young age that they would be fast tracked into a music program but at some point they would examine and study the skeletal structure of your hands and if by formula you didn't meet criteria they would determine that you would never achieve greatness. They dropped you and you ended up on the Collective carrying tractors or something.

. This would of course have been wrong and would have resulted in Andre Segovia, who had hands like a bricklayer, being a bricklayer.

---

Totally agree.

MiG-19 - Posted - 12/27/2012:  16:22:29

Great string. This is one of the best conversations I've seen on this site in a while.

Robert - Posted - 12/29/2012:  05:32:13

If bank accounts made musicians, we wouldn't hear much good music. By far most of the musicians I hear and know are not getting rich. That does not reflect on their musical ability. Most of my students enjoy the journey as far as they can take it. When it becomes more work than pleasure, they get out. If the instrument does not choose you, you won't get far with it. If it does, you will feed on what it gives you the rest of your days.

preecher - Posted - 12/29/2012:  10:04:11

I agree with Duffy. I had a teacher break my heart and self esteem when I was in the third grade. I had tested "exceptional" and was to be placed in a special class to facilitate the higher aptitude. This teacher told me that I had no business being in that class implying that I was not that smart. It took several years and a very good teacher to restore my confidence.

Music is such a gift. I have a very stressful occupation and music is my therapy. To take that away from anyone should be a crime!

Ben Venuti - Posted - 12/29/2012:  13:36:09

Don't know, but being a life long contrary and possibly an arrogant SOB ,when someone has said to me I can't do something my response is usually something like "Oh Yah, watch me!"

Part of being a musician is having a bit of a thick skin,to keep plugging away even with set backs and criticism. With that said we still have our limits in ability. I had good hands and I could run fast but if I had tried to be a wide receiver I probably wouldn't have survived the first hit from one of those giant farm boys who spent their Summers picking up cows when I was in high school. I mean,you have to have reasonable and sane expectations. I could play sand lot football or touch and have a good time at it but that didn't make me a "football" player. Playing an instrument doesn't make you a "musician", necessarily.

I have played music a good many years and spent nearly 20 years making my way as a musician and making a little money at it at a time that I didn't need very much money. I've played Carnegie Hall but not "THE" Carnegie Hall if you know what I mean. It ain't easy and it takes a great deal of hard work and not everyone can do it. A friend of my sons came by and we talked about this the other day. He fronts a pretty popular band that has had a "Hit" or two and has had a great deal of success,world tours and such, and actually,it appears,did make a lot of money over the last 10 years or so. Now he has a young family and the commitment required definitely conflicts and he's facing "the dilemma" but not over making a living at it and having to feed a family like most of us would have to do,but how to have a family with the demands that success requires in the music business . If you step out you just might find yourself out for good! That is what I found (commitment + food) which pretty much began a couple of decades of woodshedding. I am probably a better musician now than then(20 years of practice and listening does help) and family commitments are not so demanding any more but when I think about performing now it really doesn't appeal to me. I've had a couple of offers to join bands and one in particular that I turned down not long ago seems to be starting to make it and is getting some pretty top of the line club and music hall gigs. Maybe I'll be sorry. I turned John Kay down once when I was still in high school because I thought the band I was in was better than his band--still do! So I've been sorry before. These days I'm really happy to maybe sit in once in a while or better, just get together with a few musicians and while away the hours. The part I miss most about performing isn't the performing it's the refinement and arranging that one has to make when you know it's going public. None of that "jam" crap here, this has to be GOOD! You don't get that much sitting round the cracker barrel,even with really good musicians. I still think of myself primarily as a musician and some musicians still know me and maybe think of me as a musician although absolutely none of my money comes directly from music.

I've informally had a couple of students over the years + my own kids. I don't think that criticism is necessarily a bad thing, "Yah, you've got the melody down but your rhythm sucks!" I've probably said something like that. Obviously, the person we're talking about at the beginning of this thread thought enough of the person that said she was not a musician to take it to heart. From there she should have inquired to find out what exactly he meant by that and then tried to correct the problem. That is what a "musician" would do!  You play because you have to play, there isn't any quitting! If I had played football anyway because I couldn't help myself and ended up in a wheelchair for my troubles I could claim that I was a "football player".

Edited by - Ben Venuti on 12/29/2012 13:46:55

TNmusic - Posted - 01/02/2013:  15:45:50

Why is there a need to make these distinctions? "Musician" is a very subjective term.

Is calling myself a "musician" (while not allowing others that right) suppose to validate what I am doing - or what I have done? Is there a need to promote how much better I am than they are? What is the point? 

What about the person who plays an instrument to earn a living, but hates what he has to play in order to put food on the table?



What about the person who can play an instrument well as long as there is notation in front of them, but can't play squat by ear?



What about the person who can really play just about any song or tune they hear, but can't read notation, and hasn't got a clue about "theory"?



What about the person who never took a formal lesson from any instructor, but can easily play circles around an instructor giving lessons?

What about... on and on.....

Is there some kind of test to prove my qualifications?  Who grades the paper? Can a person ever loose the right to call them self, or be called a musician?



Play. Enjoy.

To the OP. A good instructor will always temper their criticism with some encouragement and hope. It is sad to think that an instructor (or anyone) would think there is an appropriate time for untempered criticism.

Edited by - TNmusic on 01/02/2013 16:12:30

Jim Yates - Posted - 01/02/2013:  20:11:52

Good post AK. 

My friend Mat Fines has said, and I must agree, "Any dedicated music student is already a musician and any dedicated musician is always a music student."

Kristibob - Posted - 01/03/2013:  10:48:12

I think that explains it perfectly, Jim.

Phizziwig - Posted - 01/04/2013:  07:26:26

Mathew is a wise man.

OregonGal - Posted - 02/22/2013:  22:44:51

Yes, with practice and determination, eventually the fingers will do what the heart requests.I saw a video about a young man who had only three fingers on each hand and yet he plays this incredible piano. Someone who loves their instrument and keeps trying will make it - and perhaps all they may need is another teacher who understands. I rest my case.

TNmusic - Posted - 02/23/2013:  13:22:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by OregonGal

Yes, with practice and determination, eventually the fingers will do what the heart requests.I saw a video about a young man who had only three fingers on each hand and yet he plays this incredible piano. Someone who loves their instrument and keeps trying will make it - and perhaps all they may need is another teacher who understands. I rest my case.

---

 If you've never heard his story, you would be impressed with Barry Abernathy, banjo player and bandleader for Mountain Heart - and 1997 Banjo Player of the Year.

roanoke.com/extra/wb/253929 

mountainheart.com/index.php?op...Itemid=76 

jazzrambler - Posted - 02/24/2013:  05:57:19

Regarding the definition of 'musician,' my dear departed mother during the first years of my career used to refer to me with phrases like, "That's Eddy, we hope he straightens up someday..." until I bought a house with my musician's wages. Then she would say, "This is Eddy, he's a professional musician..." It was a crappy house in the ghetto, but to a 60+ child of the Depression, it was apparently proper validation. Personally, I consider anyone who is willing to put themselves out there, work at it passionately and love doing it enough to lug gear for free qualifies.

Teachers who purposely quash a student are flat wrong. It sounds like bitterness. My elementary school music teacher called me tone deaf. She was a bitter old bat! I used to say I became a singer just to prove her wrong. I work in elementary education now, probably a subconscious attempt to undo her influence.

Petimar - Posted - 02/24/2013:  17:44:43

That is awful. A good teacher somehow figures out how to make progress with a student, even if is in tiny increments. A bad teacher does what this!

MandoChamp - Posted - 03/02/2013:  14:03:14

I found this thread very interesting. I started playing Mandolin as an adult (age 28), and didn't get serious about study until I was in my mid 30s. Most of my students are middle-aged and older, and like most people, struggle with bodies and synaptic function that is not the same as in a young person. I think everyone here pretty much hit it on the head; the instructor's comment said more about the teacher than it did the student. We all learn at varying paces, and being actively on the path to learning is a lifelong pursuit. I had a dear friend (Russell Foster a.k.a. Russell Who) who had issues with arthritis in his late 70s and early 80s that kept him from being able to play many of the things he could play when he was younger. He altered his arranging to a lot more cross picking and found he was able to physically adapt more easily. I hope that I can live up to his example in my older years!

fretmentor - Posted - 03/06/2013:  13:06:34

The musician in your case was not the problem. This teacher has no business instructing students.

Never in my many years of teaching music students of all levels, would I discourage a student from reaching their dreams.

Thanks for your post.

Kristibob - Posted - 03/06/2013:  18:39:20

I had an autistic young man as a piano student once, years ago. At the time, I was working with developmentally-disabled adults in a group home, and a parent of a resident there had an autistic child who couldn't seem to catch on to anything for any length of time. He was a "high-functioning" autistic..could read some, that sort of thing..and she asked if I'd try to teach him to play the piano. I said I'd try..and I did.  I found out, early on, that reading music was going to be hard for him, but I knew from his mother that he had a great eye for color..so, I took his music book and gave each  note a color, then made a color sheet for the piano..so each note had a color instead of a letter name, and he caught right on. He learned like all of the rest of us learn on a piano..but he learned that what we would call a "c" was red..and every red key on the piano was a "c".  I made sure, as he progressed, that every "c" that was represented in his book was red...he learned what the different "c's" were, as far as where they were played on the piano, and that worked for every note.  Did he make it to Carnegie Hall?...well..no..LOL...but he had a wonderful time learning and did quite well, for as long as I had him..and that was until his family moved out of town. His mom got to see that her son could learn as well as the rest of us, if we just made it possible for him to learn "his" way. I think that made her very happy.

CGBownut - Posted - 06/23/2013:  04:44:38

I believe when helping anyone with anything, especially a beginner, one should simply

Compliment them on a piece of what they did correct
Provide them direction on where and how they could improve on piece they could improve on and have them try using this new advice
Repeat.

I try an remind myself of this by using the term CPR.

TeachinMandolin444 - Posted - 08/17/2013:  07:43:27

Makes you wonder why a teacher would say such a thing to a student-after all-you never ever want to discourage a student,and we all learn at different paces. Hoping that student moves on to a better teacher. Man-why would a someone who teaches music cut their own nose off like that?

 I've had to "keep the faith" when it comes to playing fiddle. I've come a long way but have to ignore my fathers comments about bowing. He was classically trained in school,and to him my playing sounds "all wrong". (He hasn't played in decades-parents forced him into it & he joyfully put it down once he moved out of their house) I have become bold enough to where I play my acoustic in the evenings instead of getting on my electric as it's a "silent" fiddle and I was worried about offending anyones ears. 

HayAnne - Posted - 11/21/2013:  04:26:25

Certainly no teacher should be so discouraging to a student; however, this topic truly caught my attention. I'm a retired teacher, and I've been playing the mandolin for more than 5 years (no previous music training), and yet, I'm still deeply frustrated with my progress. That teacher's comment really struck home with me. Even though no one has told me that I"m not a musician, I have felt it in my bones. I love my mandolin. I practically ache to be able to take a break without totally memorizing what I'm going to play, but I just don't "get it" when it comes to what to play, even when I know the chords. When I put my mandolin down last night, I was terribly discouraged, and I woke up this morning feeling the same way.  I have joked that my goal is to be a mediocre mandolin player, but that pretty much sums up how I feel. 

I know my chords; I can do chop chords in almost any song; I take breaks on songs/tunes I've memorized; I'm working on arpeggios and pentatonic scales, even though I don't know what to do with them. Then somebody calls "Blueridge Cabin Home," and I've got nothin'.  Sure, I can memorize a melody/chord break for it, but I feel that by now I should be able to take a break on just about any G-C-D tune. Or D-G-A. Or A-D-E. I"m taking lessons now, but I'm feeling frustrated. I've taken lessons online that were somewhat helpful, but it seems like these keep teaching songs, rather than really learning how to play the mandolin. 

Enough complaining for now. Hopefully this post with be cathartic for me. I'm not usually such a Negative Nellie, and I'll try to shake this off today, but like I said, this topic caught my attention, so I went with it.