Dave Weiss - Posted - 01/23/2011:  09:40:27

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"push the pick straight through both strings of the course and let the pick stop on the upper string of the next course. Practice that until you get it right. I would suggest not worrying about the eighth and sixteenth notes until you get the quarter notes right...

>>>===> Dave

Piotr - Posted - 01/24/2011:  05:01:49

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When I read through this thread the first time I went to the homepage of a very prominent musician and educator to see if his webpage addressed this issue. It has lots of useful technical tips but does not mention this topic at all. I then emailed him, recounting the advice of that "excellent" player;
suggesting that he add his thoughts on the issue.


His response was simply you paid for those two strings, use them. When I started out in 1966 or 1967 I worried quite a bit about the two strings in each course, how to approach them. And someone told me, don't worry, just play, with proper pick grip and pick angle (the rest stroke alluded to in the previous post)
and a loose wrist everything takes care of itself. And it has.

I believe this whole thread illustrates the futility of giving advice on an internet forum. I'm afraid the TS has some serious technical issues and will have to attend to these first, with the help of a teacher. Once these are resolved the rest will be automatic.

---

Edited by - Piotr on 01/24/2011 05:05:17

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/24/2011:  05:47:26

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I wish I could find a teacher. There are no mandolin pickers in West Texas who can teach or want to teach so.... I'm stuck with trying to learn on my own. I don't have a webcam or Skype or whatever that stuff is, so I can't learn from the internet.

So, what you're really saying is: give up the mandolin since you can't find a teacher and can't seem to get any help on forums? Don't mean to sound harsh, but that's exactly what I've been thinking about doing.

I do appreciate all the replies and help people have been giving me.

TSSN - Posted - 01/24/2011:  09:49:50

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo


So, what you're really saying is: give up the mandolin since you can't find a teacher and can't seem to get any help on forums? Don't mean to sound harsh, but that's exactly what I've been thinking about doing.

---

Heaven forbid! Why would you do that?!?!?!

This may come as some kind of heresy, but it's just a mandolin, and you're not looking to perform, right? So, do what you want! Others have said something similar here. I'll just add to that chorus.

As for instruction, I have an old Burt Casey videotape that I was given many years ago. It's not the best I have used (with all of the respect due to Mr. Casey), but it deals with all of these fundamental issues.

I would be happy to send that to you. Just send me your address in a private message, and I'll drop it in the mail to you.

---

Edited by - TSSN on 01/24/2011 09:50:45

Gerry Cassidy - Posted - 01/24/2011:  10:00:38

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I definitely agree with TSSN. Don't give it up.

When it starts to get too frustrating just put it down and walk away for a few then come back to it later.

Just about everything we do in life takes time and effort to get good at. The mando is definitely no exception.

In this case, patience and effort will pay off for you.

Just keep plugging away and you will soon be having a lifetime of fun with your mando!

DaddyJ - Posted - 01/24/2011:  10:43:43

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If you want to just hit one string go ahead. I'm not sure why you'd want to play this way, but it's not illegal. The mando police aren’t going to come to your house and put your mando in a group home and make you go door to door and tell all your neighbors that you like to abuse stringed instruments. But I can assure you, the mandolin was designed for each group of paired strings to be played like they were one string, and ultimately, you’ll be much happier with it if you learn to play it this way.

I understand your frustration. Every instrument has unique characteristics that make it challenging, and this is one of the things that’s hard about the mandolin. You’re fretting, and playing, two strings as one. It takes more effort (fretting and picking) to get a good sound out of that pair of strings than, say, a single guitar string. But every instrument presents its own challenges, and if you give up mando for something else you’re still going to battle frustration. To me, this is like a new violin player complaining about the screechy tone, or a guitar player saying “I can’t play fast enough!” These are common problems that simply mean you need more practice and, probably, your technique needs work.

The title of this thread is proper pick technique, so let's talk about that. How are you holding the pick? Are you gripping it too tight? Are you using too much of the pick? You could be making things harder than they need to be.

---

Edited by - DaddyJ on 01/24/2011 10:44:22

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/24/2011:  11:15:44

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You're all right, I am frustrated. I play a pretty good banjo and am fair at guitar and taught banjo for years and now I'm finding myself acting like some of my students used to. Guess I understand their frustration more now.

I'm holding the pick between my thumb and index finger -- like I've seen videos and pictures of. I try not to squash the pick when I'm holding it, but use a firm but gentle grip. I hold it fairly close to the tip of the pick, not way back away from the picking end of it. I'm also trying to learn not to plant a finger on the mandolin but allow my hand to be free -- that's getting easier to do -- and I'm putting the heel of my and behind the bridge for "support", I guess you'd call it, and trying to keep my wrist loose.

I don't try to play fast, I know better than that. I take it slow and easy until I get it right and then slowly bump up the speed. I work with Band in a Box to be sure my timing is right.

What else do I need to do except practice, practice, practice?

dsreiner - Posted - 01/24/2011:  11:37:06

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Hi Texasbanjo-

Here's a different slant from the pick one vs. pick two discussion...

You said a while back that hitting two strings can sound terrible on Cripple Creek. I wonder if there's a problem with the two strings in a pair crossing your bridge at slightly different points, so that even if the open strings are in tune, they sound out of tune to each other. More commonly, there can be a problem with a mis-cut nut, so that the strings in a pair cross at different points.

If your open strings sound the same in a pair, but slightly different at one of the frets, this could be the issue. A competent repair person can fix it. This is an issue that you wouldn't have encountered on banjo or (6-string) guitar.

Dave

Piotr - Posted - 01/25/2011:  03:06:17

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy

The only time I ever heard of anyone hitting just one string was Jesse McReynolds, who picks a single string when he is "splitting" the strings.

---

He does? I thought the idea of split-string technique was to play double stops on one course.

---

Edited by - Piotr on 01/25/2011 03:33:30

Piotr - Posted - 01/25/2011:  03:32:57

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Smith

Here is Pete Frostic giving the same advice.

youtube.com/watch?v=8a5JxjmmIrE

---

You really know how to confuse people. At about 3:59 Frostic says something like "on mandolin you always pick two strings, never just one".
Same advice ??????????????

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/25/2011:  05:46:10

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Dave, that's not the problem. The strings sound true, no problems with tuning. It's hitting the two strings together, seems like I hit one and bounce off the other one so I get 2 separate sounds and then I lose timing when I try to hit another string. Does that make sense? I'm playing slowly, not trying for speed, just good timing, tone and technique.

Again, maybe it's just practice that I need and I practice every day for as long as my hand will let me (which is usually about 40 minutes).

Tim Smith - Posted - 01/25/2011:  09:16:16

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Piotr

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Smith

Here is Pete Frostic giving the same advice.

youtube.com/watch?v=8a5JxjmmIrE

---

You really know how to confuse people. At about 3:59 Frostic says something like "on mandolin you always pick two strings, never just one".
Same advice ??????????????

---

It's obvious Frostic is playing one string down and one string up, even more obvious when he goes to the the top G and bottom D.

After thirty years of playing I will give advice once, give several examples if I can, then if it is ignored that is fine, it will not concern me in the least. I think every example I gave shows the down/up technique very clearly. What anyone chooses to do with the information is up to them.

DaddyJ - Posted - 01/25/2011:  09:18:53

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Smith
It's obvious Frostic is playing one string down and one string up, even more obvious when he goes to the the top G and bottom D.

---

To clarify, what do you mean by "one string"?

Tim Smith - Posted - 01/25/2011:  12:56:37

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One string as in singular.

Piotr - Posted - 01/26/2011:  08:29:11

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Smith

quote:

---

Originally posted by Piotr

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Smith

Here is Pete Frostic giving the same advice.

youtube.com/watch?v=8a5JxjmmIrE

---

You really know how to confuse people. At about 3:59 Frostic says something like "on mandolin you always pick two strings, never just one".
Same advice ??????????????

---

It's obvious Frostic is playing one string down and one string up, even more obvious when he goes to the the top G and bottom D.

After thirty years of playing I will give advice once, give several examples if I can, then if it is ignored that is fine, it will not concern me in the least. I think every example I gave shows the down/up technique very clearly. What anyone chooses to do with the information is up to them.

---

Information? Examples? I´m beginning to believe that you're putting us on. You cite Frostic's video in support of your thesis, and after about 4 minutes he states the opposite. "Maker sure you get both of them" he says, and then he illustrates his point by simultaneously playing a repeated low g. And to you it's obvious that he doesn't know what he's doing!!?? You also cite Pete Martin, and after a couple of minutes he says the same thing as Frostic. Didn't you read his post earlier in this thread???


In between the two there's Baron Collins-Hill - whose playing on his numerous YT videos isn't all that convincing. He doesn't address this issue at all.
Neither do Butch Baldassari and Don Julin. What does Roland White say, and what does he play? To my ears and eyes it's clear that he's playing both strings. When he says "let's try just one string first" he means "one course", that's his usage thoughout both videos. "String" means "course", he obviously thinks of the two strings as a unit.

I simply don't udnerstand how you can gain speed by skipping one string on the down- or upstroke, instead of pushing through.
Also, that would require an outward sweep which, as is well-known, is not the ultimate mode of attack. Educators emphasize the importance of the rest stroke.

Piotr - Posted - 01/26/2011:  08:39:11

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Dave, that's not the problem. The strings sound true, no problems with tuning. It's hitting the two strings together, seems like I hit one and bounce off the other one so I get 2 separate sounds and then I lose timing when I try to hit another string. Does that make sense? I'm playing slowly, not trying for speed, just good timing, tone and technique.

Again, maybe it's just practice that I need and I practice every day for as long as my hand will let me (which is usually about 40 minutes).

---

This is all very strange and difficult to understand without, e.g., the aid of a video. With a stiff pick (my Ultex 1.14 are on the flimsy side!), playing from the wrist
in a relaxed manner, with proper pick angle and pick depth you should be able to effortlessly push through both strings. Have you watched videos of players with good right hands, e.g., David Long and Andy Leftwich? Did you watch Mike Marshall's video? There's another mandolin forum, Mandolin Café. If you google - "both strings" site: mandolincafe.com - you will find a couple of threads, mainly started by people who worry about not
playing both strings. - "rest stroke" site: mandolincafe.com - might give you a few ideas too. Why not join them and post your questions in the Technique forum? There are several educators and prominent players posting there.

With this I'm out of this thread.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/26/2011:  11:16:24

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Gee, I didn't mean to cause problems -- I just asked a simple question and now people are arguing about it.

Can't we just all get along and agree to disagree on the subject. This dissent isn't helping a beginner at all, in fact, it's just confusing me more.

Tim Smith - Posted - 01/26/2011:  23:56:44

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Texasbanjo please watch this. This is what I am talking about. from 2;12 onward he shows playing two strings downward as wasted pick stroke.

youtube.com/watch?v=JD8w6rvW44...e=related

Here is a clip of an exercise. Notice how he gets twice the notes on the arpeggio's just by simply doing down/up single notes.

youtube.com/watch?v=3a7001QgvG...e=related

Here is some close ups of down/up pick strokes in a song. Notice how many more notes he gets using the single down/up technique. Each pick stroke is a note.

youtube.com/watch?v=hSZ40V0teG...e=related

Bottom line is this-If you practice the down/ups on single strings, then go to string crossing as shown in several videos, eighth notes, 16th's etc. will fall in place.

TSSN - Posted - 01/27/2011:  05:45:25

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Tim - I think your first suggestion above (2:12 into the Thile video) is perhaps the most helpful for this topic so far. FWIW, I believe that is a must-own video. The only problem is that he looked so young then, and I feel that much older every time I watch it.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/27/2011:  07:24:25

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Very interesting video. That's what I'm trying to do - the up down stroke -- like I do on the guitar -- but I was trying to hit just one string rather than both -- and I can see that on that video he is hitting both strings.

I've change my right hand position, no more putting down finger(s) like on banjo and it IS helping. Still feels strange, but getting easier to do and feeling better and think I can see some improvement.

I really do appreciate all the thoughts on this thread. It's helping me a lot!

teebee - Posted - 01/27/2011:  10:12:12

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Could you expand on this "no more putting down finger(s) like on banjo "
Is there a video to expand on this? I play a little old time banjo and just picked up an 'A' mando. What did you change your hand position to?

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/27/2011:  11:11:08

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When playing banjo, I had my ring and pinkie down on the head for stability. When flatpicking guitar, I had my ring finger down for stability, so naturally, I did the same thing on the mandolin. It didn't work too well, and I had a hard time hitting the strings and making it sound like one string, not two -- that's what started this whole thread, whether to hit one string or two.

Now, to answer your question, after watching some of the videos mentioned above, and paying attention to what several members said about hand position, I found that using NO fingers on the body of the instrument did, indeed, help my problem. It still feels strange, but it's getting better. I do put the heel of my hand behind the bridge and that gives me some stability, but I also have more freedom of the wrist, which seems to be what I needed. I no longer dig in too deep and now when I hit across the strings, it sounds like one note, not two separate ones.

Check out some of the videos mentioned on here and watch the hand positions of the different pickers -- not one of them has a finger down on the body of the instrument, and most of the movement is from the wrist.

I may learn to play this thing yet!

DaddyJ - Posted - 01/27/2011:  11:22:31

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This video has been one of the most helpful to me with regards to right hand technique. Scott has one of the most efficient right hands I've ever seen and this method does work on mandolin too.

teebee - Posted - 01/27/2011:  11:24:21

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Thanks. You sound a lot happier now! It's been a help to me also.

Tim Smith - Posted - 01/27/2011:  13:26:53

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I am happy for you Texasbanjo!

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/28/2011:  05:53:25

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Thanks, everyone, I do appreciate all the help and my frustration level is down somewhat. Now, off to practice, practice, practice.

Mandolin Ant - Posted - 01/28/2011:  07:48:47

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Good luck Texas. And just remember, this is SUPPOSED to be FUN!

musicman44 - Posted - 02/11/2011:  22:08:03

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Okay, I was told by an excellent mandolin picker that you only hit ONE string and to hit both strings was wrong and I'd never get any speed. Wonder if he was just pulling my leg or trying to confuse me?

---

From what I understand of mandolin picking patterns, the point is to keep a consistent down stroke -> up stroke pattern no matter what you're playing. This is what develops speed. The fact that the instrument has two strings for every note played I think helps to keep the tone clear and audible.

I think he might have pulling your leg. However, if he can pull it off...then hats off to him.

MandoSquirrel - Posted - 02/12/2011:  17:15:48

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Some classical technique instructors teach to hit only one of a pair on the UPSTROKE when down-up picking, other than that, they're meant for pairing.

Piotr - Posted - 02/12/2011:  21:50:51

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I said I was out of this thread, so I just give a quote, from Bickford´s method.

(THE DOWN STROKE):

In making the stroke, the hand is dropped suddenly from the position as shown in the cut, so that the pick strikes the pair of strings and rests firmly against the next higher string, after having vibrated the required strings.

(THE DOWN AND UP STROKE):

...

After having allowed the pick to rest for an instant, with all muscles perfectly relaxed, the hand and pick are brought back with a quick motion to the exact point from which the down stroke was started and following the very same angle or imaginary "groove," but touching the strings on this upward journey, the same as when the hand went down.

...

Should the second of the pair of strings occasionally be missed on the up stroke, it need cause no concern, since the two strings are always to be considered as one, and the missing of one of the pair is partly compensated by the fact that if the strings are perfectly in tune, the second will vibrate in s\mpathy with the first, and also by the fact that up strokes are, as a general rule, on unaccented or rhythmically less important notes than the down strokes. Many of the great- est virtuosos, soloists and authorities, both in this country and in Europe openly advocate the striking of but a single string on the up stroke. The author would suggest, however, the above method as being most nearly ideal.
When the tremolo on two or more strings is studied, the pick must necessarily strike both strings of the pair on the up as well as the down stroke, ...

Tim Smith - Posted - 02/13/2011:  00:58:35

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The Bickford method has to do with rest strokes in classical music . Virtually no one uses it in classical anymore and it certainly has no bearing on playing bluegrass or fiddle tunes.
Play the top string on the downstroke and the bottom string on the upstroke.

Anything else is just sloppy technique.

MandoSquirrel - Posted - 02/13/2011:  12:30:24

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Lot's of people still grabbing up copies when they can find them; & big name players & instructors still recommending it. I'm pretty sure I've read John McGann(Berkele College Of Music professor) recommending it and the djangobooks.com website recommends & offers all four volumes as e-books. Lot's of us still use Bickford, at least for the occasional exercise.

Yeah, it was a typo.

---

Edited by - MandoSquirrel on 02/14/2011 17:26:03

Tim Smith - Posted - 02/13/2011:  21:26:24

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John Mcgann is at Berklee on the east coast.. (I am sure Berkely was a typo on your part) He has a book covering all the different right hand techniques including rest strokes, alternating strokes, crosspicking. He can do it all. Very patient with questions also.

I am sure Bickford is a must read for classical minded people and and the rest stroke has a its place in some pieces. I just don't see it's place in developing the right hand of a beginner learning 1/4 and 1/8th notes on fiddle tunes.

Tim Smith - Posted - 02/14/2011:  09:56:34

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Here are exerpts taken from a tutorial by John McGann taken from here...mandolincafe.com/archives/django1.html

Downstrokes are played as rest strokes. Play your open G string, and come to rest on the D string. Do not lift the pick into the air- with this technique, you naturally play down toward the top of the instrument. It maximizes the string's vibration and draws the most sound from the mandolin.

For those of us who are rooted in bluegrass, Irish/Scottish, or other fiddle tune music on the mandolin, (meaning most non-classical mandolinists!) the Django technique is unusual to the point of seeming counter-intuitive at times. I play bluegrass, Irish music and mainstream jazz using a more conventional technique- the techniques taught here are those used specifically for Django style playing.

I present this to make the point that rest strokes used as described by Bickford and adapted by Django styled jazz players is a very specific technique and not to be confused with down/up alternating right hand styles.

MandoSquirrel - Posted - 02/14/2011:  17:29:15

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And my point was simply that, regardless of the rest stroke, the Bickford Method is still a valid & useful method to help any player develop a good right hand(as well as left) technique.

Piotr - Posted - 02/14/2011:  20:58:16

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More McGann:


Rest strokes help you keep your hand low to the strings, so when you alternate pick you tend not to lift the strings in the air, but rather play them 'down toward the top', which gives you a much better sound/projection, since the strings are ringing much more efficiently. (Feb-10-2009)

Rest strokes really maximize the punch and projection of your instrument. Try this:

pick a string (course) with the 'swooping' pick that lifts the string up as you pluck. Watch the string vibrate- kind of vertically.

pick the same string with a rest stroke and watch the string vibrate. It spins in a circle, and to my ears, creates a rounder, fatter tone- which I think happens because the instrument is now doing what is was built to do, mechanically speaking- getting the bridge and top to vibrate more efficiently.

You won't use them much in fast fiddle tunes, but getting used to the angle needed to execute them at slower tempos helps you keep the pick 'in closer' to the strings, or what i can 'down toward the top', rather than that lift/drop attack that to my ears is unlovely in contrast. YMMV.

The Gypsy picking works great on guitar where you play less notes per string. Their rule is to never switch strings on an upstroke (obviously there are some exceptions, but that's the traditional gypsy way to do it- NO exceptions in the hard core tradition). When you play Django's lines and sort out how he had to finger them with two functional left hand fingers, and you apply this rule, it leads you to some AWESOME discoveries (Feb-13-2009 )
**************************
quote: One final (I hope) observation... If the rest stroke was a common thing it wouldn't be so closely associated with one genre of music (Gypsy Jazz) and there wouldn't be so many people who have never heard of it.

No reason you couldn't go your entire life without ever knowing or caring about the rest stroke.
**************************
John's response:

...Unless you like to play classical or classic bluegrass or old school acoustic jazz (not just Gypsy style but swing players from Eddie Lang through Charlie Christian)- rest strokes are pretty commonly used, to great effect, if you dig into the roots of these styles.

I wasn't hip to them outside of classical guitar until about 8 years ago, and they have really made a difference in my sound FWIW.
(Feb-14-2009)


In other words, the point of the rest stroke is not the rest but the stroke. That, of course, is good news for those coming to the mandolin from flatpicked acoustic guitar where mastery of the rest stroke is one of the things that sets genuine acoustic players apart from electric players pretending to play acoustic.
I've found that it also helps trigger various slurs, hammer-on's, pull-off's, and other devices such as triplets on one course followed by a downstroke on the next higher course. That, of course, is also one thing to remember; even if you play strings of 1/8 notes, you don't pick every note.

Piotr - Posted - 02/17/2011:  05:24:41

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim Smith

The Bickford method has to do with rest strokes in classical music . Virtually no one uses it in classical anymore and it certainly has no bearing on playing bluegrass or fiddle tunes.
Play the top string on the downstroke and the bottom string on the upstroke.

Anything else is just sloppy technique.

---

mandozine.com/resources/CGOW/radim.php (question 15)

ew.com/ew/article/0,,1111226,00.html

Tim Smith - Posted - 02/17/2011:  14:58:47

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John Reischman

Q - Could you please describe your right hand technique and please provide any tips or insights that you feel are most important to beginning to intermediate players?

A - I lightly rest the base of my palm on the bridge without applying pressure. This places the pick over the fingerboard extension. When I am playing single notes my hand is always in contact with the bridge, sort of gliding over the top of it. I keep my fingers curled into my palm.

I use both a loose, and locked wrist ,depending on the type of tune or technique I am using. For tremolo and hard driving bluegrass tunes my wrist locks. For fiddle tunes and cross picking my wrist is more loose. My wrist is loosest when I am playing rhythm.

My right hand makes a fairly wide sweep when I am playing aggressively. I move my hand in and out, sort of like a sewing machine to avoid hitting the other strings. Sometimes I compare this motion to a pendulum. For quieter, more melodic tunes this technique is less pronounced.

I think one of the most important things for someone starting out is to use proper pick direction. For most tunes, you need to play the notes that fall on the beat with a down stroke, and the ands with an up stroke. I think the key to this is feeling the timing in your right hand. I almost always keep my right hand subtly moving, falling on the beat just like you would tap your foot. This will help make sure that you will have the right pick direction even during syncopated passages. Having this sorted out will give a fluidity to the rhythm of your notes.

Check out Thile, Steffey, Hull, Leftwich and practically any of the super clean pickers today. Down/ups that look like sewing machines going. Mandolin players out there on the circuit today are so much cleaner than in the past.

Play through strings if that is what you like, a lot do. Just don't be suprised when a 15 year old kid sits down and makes it sound crystal clear like an angel playing a harp.

lc47 - Posted - 02/21/2011:  00:48:14

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Hi
I have just watched the 3 clips Tim Smith posted of Chris Thile playing back on page 3 of this thread. WOW!
It has really given me a good insight as to how I should be holding my pick - I feel as if my pick is moving out of my fingers all the time (I don't seem to have this problem with Banjo or Uke though)! So when I start practicing latter today I shall refer to these clips and any more of his I can find.
Thanks to Tim for posting:)
Regards
Linda

mandoteacher - Posted - 02/22/2011:  06:06:59

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Yeah. I address this in my first lesson. If you had a good teacher, you wouldn't have this problem. I know a lot of people want to teach themselves. But the whole point of having a teacher is so that you don't make mistakes like this and have to go back and relearn everything later.

Well, I did a video about this topic on my youtube page, but here's what to do in a nutshell:

Start with scales. The proper right hand placement (slightly behind the bridge, fingers curled in, pick not too firmly grasped), is essential. Starting very slowly (slowest setting on your metronome), hit top string with a downstroke, under string with an upstroke. Do 4 of them per note up the scale, 2 octaves and back. Do this every day for a week at the metronome setting. Next week, increase the speed by one notch and do it again. Increase the speed by 1 notch every week. At the end of a month, you will be able to do it with no problem.

Piotr - Posted - 02/24/2011:  04:38:37

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archive.mandolinsessions.com/a...fast.html


mandolincafe.com/forum/showthr...php?29445
esp. #8

mandolincafe.com/forum/showthr...php?38888


mandolincafe.com/forum/showthr...php?48688
e.g., #13,20

coelhoe - Posted - 02/24/2011:  06:25:44

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Adam suggests that "...proper right hand placement (is) behind the bridge." I would say that hand placement and pick attack depend on where the best tone and volume are produced by the instrument, and this varies. For most long-scale mandos of my experience (i.e. 13 7/8 to 14 inches) the most pleasing tone and volume are produced at about 3 1/2 to 4 inches above the bridge towards the nut. This is also the area for the loudest "chop."

The Offshore Accounts - Posted - 04/06/2011:  01:17:37

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I want to hear the strings verb!! Pick 'em both!

5stringabuse - Posted - 04/29/2011:  23:12:18

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very nice thread

very helpful comments

thank you all for sharing your experience and helping

 

hans (just created account)

TI_USER - Posted - 01/23/2012:  11:18:38

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quote:

---

Originally posted by mandoteacher



Yeah. I address this in my first lesson. If you had a good teacher, you wouldn't have this problem. I know a lot of people want to teach themselves. But the whole point of having a teacher is so that you don't make mistakes like this and have to go back and relearn everything later.



Well, I did a video about this topic on my youtube page, but here's what to do in a nutshell:



Start with scales. The proper right hand placement (slightly behind the bridge, fingers curled in, pick not too firmly grasped), is essential. Starting very slowly (slowest setting on your metronome), hit top string with a downstroke, under string with an upstroke. Do 4 of them per note up the scale, 2 octaves and back. Do this every day for a week at the metronome setting. Next week, increase the speed by one notch and do it again. Increase the speed by 1 notch every week. At the end of a month, you will be able to do it with no problem.

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I am a firm believer in proper technique.  The problem is, every person is different.  What works well for one person may not work so well for another.  I get so tired of this "only one way to hold a pick" nonsense.  There are a huge number of working pros who you can look to  for evidence that different pick holding techniques all CAN work well.  Some people plant their wrist on or behind the bridge.  Some people plant a finger on the mando top.  Some people (Sam Bush) use almost their entire arm.  As for me, I lightly rest the first knuckle of my pinky finger on the top and my remaining fingers curl under a little.  Works fine for me and I have played that way for 35 years.  The key is to find a technique that works for that individual player and practice that technique to perfection. 

As far as the OP's original issue.  Hopefully, this is straightened out.  The mandolin is supposed to be played in double courses, with both strings of a single course played together.  PERIOD!!  There are occasional exceptions to create a particular sound, but this is done very rarely.  The reason the mandolin has double courses is to increase resonance and volume.  The double strings are to be played as one.  Without the double courses, the mandolin would sound like a steel string ukulele. 

I am certain that the OP misunderstood his "expert" friend.  When he said to pick a single string he was referring to a single "course".   Some of the "advise" I have read here is some of the worst advise I have ever heard.

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Edited by - TI_USER on 01/23/2012 11:29:40

Ben Venuti - Posted - 01/23/2012:  13:17:55

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I have watched and studied quite a few mandolin players of note as to their right hand technique and as far as how one holds the pick it's about 50/50 to closed fist vs.a more open hand. Angle of attach is more universal tending to have a slight backward angle as opposed to straight across / perpendicular to the strings. Reishman's sewing machine explanation(above) is pretty good as I never had a way to describe it and now I do. Planting or resting the hand on the bridge ,playing over the extension or slightly behind is all over the map and I haven't been able to determine if there is one way that is more commonly shared by the players that I like. Many can change up quite a bit depending on what it is they are doing at any given time even as far as how they are holding the pick. I was watching Buck White, who I think is about the best rhythm player in the business, and when he picks melody he will close his hand but when he plays rhythm he will play with an open hand.

I have heard Thile several times perform but not long ago I heard him in an unampilfied jam situation and was surprised at how softly me plays. Maybe he has been playing miked for so long that his technique depends on it but he was kind of drowned out by the other players and some were his own people.

Ben Venuti - Posted - 01/23/2012:  13:47:33

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And in regard to the original post questioning their teachers advise I would hope by now that they have managed to clarify what it was exactly that the teacher was trying to explain.
The other day someone was all upset because they were moving and their stuff was being carried by professional movers .They wanted to be there when they unpacked because they thought that they needed to tell them where to put stuff. Circumstances had it that they couldn't be there and I thought that it shouldn't be a problem because, since it's a new house, professional movers will pretty much figure out which drawer the cutlery goes and be more likely to make the right choice on a first try than they would. The same principle applies to having a music teacher. If I had a veteran,professional teacher and especially if it's someone that when I hear them play that there is a "Wow" factor I think I would do what they were instructing me to do. Even if sometime in the future one modifies or changes their technique it will be based on sound fundamentals.

TI_USER - Posted - 01/23/2012:  18:35:58

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ben Venuti

I have heard Thile several times perform but not long ago I heard him in an unampilfied jam situation and was surprised at how softly me plays. Maybe he has been playing miked for so long that his technique depends on it but he was kind of drowned out by the other players and some were his own people.

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It is an interesting point that I have have observed with several modern players.  Chris Thile and Sierra Hull are two that come to mind.  Byrce Milano is another.  I jammed with Bryce at a BG festival one time and he played so quiet that everybody in the jam played at a whisper just to hear him.  I don't know why that is.  Maybe their technique is such that it doesn't allow them to project.  Perhaps they are so focused on playing fluid that volume doesn't matter to them.  It's not a criticism, just an observation.  However, they probably wouldn't have gone far in Jimmy Martin's band.

TI_USER - Posted - 01/23/2012:  18:52:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ben Venuti

And in regard to the original post questioning their teachers advise I would hope by now that they have managed to clarify what it was exactly that the teacher was trying to explain.

The other day someone was all upset because they were moving and their stuff was being carried by professional movers .They wanted to be there when they unpacked because they thought that they needed to tell them where to put stuff. Circumstances had it that they couldn't be there and I thought that it shouldn't be a problem because, since it's a new house, professional movers will pretty much figure out which drawer the cutlery goes and be more likely to make the right choice on a first try than they would. The same principle applies to having a music teacher. If I had a veteran,professional teacher and especially if it's someone that when I hear them play that there is a "Wow" factor I think I would do what they were instructing me to do. Even if sometime in the future one modifies or changes their technique it will be based on sound fundamentals.

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I agree 100%.  If you are working with a teacher, especially one who obviously has some advanced skill, I would most definitely heed his/her advise.  If at some point you feel you don't agree with that technique or feel it isn't working for you, you can then get another teacher or try to figure it out yourself.  However, if I'm interpreting the OP's original statements correctly, he doesn't have a teacher.  He states in post #7 that he "was told by an excellent mandolin picker" that you only hit one string.  I'm guessing that this was a one-time meeting and not a regular teacher.  I know how difficult it is to learn without a teacher.  When I was learning mandolin in 1976, there were no teachers in my area.  I learned entirely by ear and applied what I knew from playing guitar.  Today we have the luxury of on-line lessons via Skype.  There is no longer any excuse why someone can't get quality lessons from a skilled player.  Granted, it's not the same as someone personally positioning your hand and instantly pointing what you're doing wrong, but it's very close.  I don't care where you are, if you have a computer and internet, which he obviously does, you can get good lessons.