There has been a fair amount of inaccurate storytelling when it comes to Gibson's neck joint application in their mandolins, and this thread is to set the record straight re: recent usage of the last 50 years or so.
At least during the teens (1910-19) and certainly by the time the F5 Master Model was introduced, Gibson implemented a compound dovetail neck joint; this application continued until 1970 & Stan Rendell's re-design of the F5. It was at this time that Gibson designed/utilized a Mortise-Tenon straight slot joint that was EXISTING methodology when:
A. Roger Siminoff spearheaded the F5L project in 1978 and
B. Gibson purchased Flatiron in 1987.
Per the F5L project, quoting Roger Siminoff:
" The neck joints on these instruments boasted a mortise and tenon design that Gibson was using at the time. The machining of the neck heel and one-piece neck-and-fretboard-extender spoke well for Gibson's incredible woodcrafting capabilities. Unfortunately, the neck joint didn't feature a secure locking method, and several of these instruments experienced neck joint failure and required subsequent re-sets. The mortise and tenon neck joint featured a single element neck-and-fretboard-extender that greatly facilitated construction and alignment. We had wanted the mortise and tenon eliminated early on in the development of the F-5L, but the company had already prepared a bin of necks (see photo below) and had invested a great deal in tooling to create the mortise and tenon connection."
Of particular note is the almost religious fervor that some have on this topic as shown by:
1. Holding Steve Carlson/Bruce Weber responsible for the Mortise-Tenon neck joint methodology/usage at Gibson
2. Classifying these mandolins as inferior, and yet hypocritically say not ONE word about Tom Ellis (Ellis mandolins) and Bill Collings (Collings mandolins) usage of the SAME joint in their mandolins for years up until about 5 years ago, or that Ellis/Collings mandolins were inferior because of it...meaning at the time of internet forum thread posts on this subject, that's what both Ellis/Collings used; and some Martin guitars as well.
So in summation:
1. Gibson introduced the Mortise-Tenon neck joint usage in 1970 and this continued up to about 1997-99 when Charlie Derrington initiated & over saw a retool at Gibson Nashville that brought back the compound Dovetail joint.
2. If Montana Gibsons are deemed inferior on the basis of this joint then one must also declare Ellis/Collings mandolins and several Martin guitars as inferior also.
The logical conclusion would be that the supposed neck joint issue is purely religious hype and nothing else.
Edited by - Loarcutus on 02/03/2023 11:30:53
How do folks feel about bolt on necks for mandolins?
quote:
Originally posted by MrMoeHow do folks feel about bolt on necks for mandolins?
Well, as well as calling the mortise-tenon joint "bolt-on", most purists don't like them on mandolins or acoustic guitars (Taylor)
Google followed my reading and recommended this article that shows the OG dovetail.
fretboardjournal.com/features/...ond-life/
quote:
Originally posted by MrMoeGoogle followed my reading and recommended this article that shows the OG dovetail.
fretboardjournal.com/features/...ond-life/
That was a really good article; I remember when it came out...
I got to spend an afternoon with Mr. Gilchrist when he had workspace at Old Standard Wood. I wish I had known better what to talk about with him. Perhaps it is better that I said not much at all. It was amazing to watch him work!
quote:
Originally posted by MrMoeI got to spend an afternoon with Mr. Gilchrist when he had workspace at Old Standard Wood. I wish I had known better what to talk about with him. Perhaps it is better that I said not much at all. It was amazing to watch him work!
That's pretty cool!
@Loarcutus It was cool.
Mr. Loar, Mr. Glichrist, and other great builders seem to be humans made with something to spare. Scientist, Artist, and Craftsman. Mr. Gilchrist was starting a "Batch" of Mandolins his first step at that time was to cut his signature inlay with the jewelers saw to create the peg head overlay. "To keep his hand and eye sharp", and to "Put my name on my work right away so I am committed from the start to do my very best"
I have yet to even hold a good carved Mandolin... Something to look forward to!
Best regards, Maurice
Never understood the wisdom in anything but a solidly fused neck joint (i.e., compound dovetail).
A tight joint using a screw or bolt to secure it just doesn't seem to add-up in the physics / timbre department when it comes to producing the ultimate tones.
I suppose the vintage 1930's National Steel-bodied Duolians are an exception.
Break that neck, or needing a re-fret, you just unscrew it and buy a new inexpensive neck.
I am in the process of retooling my designs to improve the neck joint. Nick Kukich (the gentleman I learned from) insists that a bolt on neck is the "best". His guitars are highly regarded and considered by some to be among the best sounding boutique guitars ever made. Mike Dulak uses the neck joint that he learned at Franklin on his mandolins.
Here is a recent article about Nick. He and Mike were both good friends and colleagues of Bob Givens.
fretboardjournal.com/features/...uitar-co/
youtu.be/2vhlTABmKh4
This much I believe re: neck joints (and so do many others)...
The compound dovetail neck joints on Gibson's early mandolins (especially Loar's work) have proven infallible for the past 100 years. That goes for A and F models. Rock solid joints, and real work-horses for a century now.
Cannot be said for the F5L's, which had multiple mortise and tenon neck joint failures (at least that's what I saw in the first couple of batches).
Charlie D. was well aware of that fact.
So far I have made simple, inexpensive mandolins. Even at $500.00 I am somewhat embarrassed about the bolt on neck. I do want to try a more authentic clone of a Gibson DY built like a classical guitar or ukulele.
DY is not the model I am thinking of.... I can't find the image. (I thought it was an old Gibson flat mandolin) with the sides rabited into the neck. Even the DY has a dovetail!
To me, the bigger issue (as exemplified in some responses) is the total lack of holding Collings & Ellis mandolins to the same (their joint is not as good) standard as Gibson...both used the mortise-tenon neck joint...
