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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.mandohangout.com/archive/55029
Yooper - Posted - 04/04/2021: 08:56:52
Up until about 1898, all mandolins had flat tops, usually with a bend, in the style of the Italian bowlbacks. Then, Orville Gibson took some ideas from violin makers, and designed the archtop mandolin. The popularity of that design exploded in the 19-teens with the mandolin orchestras that the Gibson company promoted. Still, Martin and others were selling lots of flat top mandolins, although with the bowlback replaced with more of a guitar style flat back. Mandolin popularity declined precipitously in the 1920s, but the arch top design has remained the standard.
Originally, guitars were also flat tops (Stradivarius made guitars), but Orville also introduced archtop guitar designs. By the 1930s, arch top guitars were modern and cool. If you could afford one, that was what you wanted. Now days, we think of arch tops as restricted to jazz styles, but the quintessential country guitar picker (Mother Maybelle) played an L-5 and lots of cowboy singers went that direction too. However, flat tops again became the instrument of choice for almost everyone other than jazz types (and David Rawlins).
People say that arch tops have more volume, less sustain, less bass, and fewer overtones than flat tops. Arch tops excel at leads and chop rhythms. Flat tops are preferred for open chord strumming. Why do you think the mandolin and guitar worlds have diverged so? Is the archtop mandolin essentially a jazz instrument, coopted by bluegrass heathens? :)
Edited by - Yooper on 04/05/2021 06:14:45
TSSN - Posted - 04/05/2021: 06:17:17
In a word: bluegrass.
It seems to me that the mandolin has been pigeon-holed, historically. It would pop up from time to time as an accent: songs by Rod Stewart, Zep, R.E.M., etc., but it was always "straying" away from bluegrass.
In the last 20 years, that stranglehold seems to have been broken with the emergence of--and reaction to--the film O Brother... and the rise of Nickle Creek.
On the other hand, the guitar has been allowed to spread everywhere, unfettered.
mandosoft - Posted - 04/05/2021: 07:17:05
It's a lot easier to manufacture a flat top guitar and sell it at a low price point that sounds decent enough to consumers. Cheaply constructing an arch top instrument? It'll sound awful which is why 90% of mandolins sound pretty terrible.
Also, it is an absolute pain to mic a mandolin at any venue properly and guitarist hardly have that problem. I gave up and just use an SM-57 now, although I do have a design for a better pickup in the works.
Mandodennis - Posted - 04/05/2021: 11:47:56
Interesting topic.
I think some of how we think about the the form and sound of the mandolin depends upon our point-of-view. And much of that is formed by the type(s) of music we might prefer to play.
The mandolin comes in many shapes (and sizes if you include the rest of the family - mandola, octave mandolin, cello mandolin and bass mandolin). Different types of music traditions have embraced the different shapes or forms of the instrument. So yeah, the bowl back mandolins had their heyday in the the early days of the 20th century. That's broadly speaking. But they still enjoy a following among players of certain types of music. They were prevalent in the homes ofsome of my Italian bandmates and other friends when I was coming up.
The bowl back mandolins have the canted tops - bent tops. And some builders here in the US carried on with that part of the design and dispensed with the barrel stay backs. The Martin factory is just a few miles north of me. They made bowl backs back in the day, lots of them. The they made the flat backed/canted top models for about 80ish years after that. They made a lot of those too. There are still lots of both types sitting in the music rooms of houses hereabout. There might not be a great need to build more since there always seems to be a ready supply of the old ones around. These bent top/flat back mandolins are still well loved and played in folk music circles.
And the center hole mandolin styles are well regarded in Irish music circles too. Is it the difference in sound between mandolins with cross bracing versus bass bars? I don;t know. But the sound is more in-tune with those types of music these days. (Of course the octave mandolin, bouzouki and mandoguitar push against the older designs all the time.) But the tear drop shape, center hole instrument is the more common form of the mando used in Irish music.
And Martin did respond to the novelty of Gibson's carved top mandolins with terrific carved mandolins of theor own - oval hole first and then f hole models. The Martin 2-15 is one of my favorite mandolins ever. Well made with the best woods available. And with a very balanced piano like sound across the range. These mandolins ( Model 2- styles 15,20,30) are frequently the favorites of classical players. Although they do get seen in other circles. Though they only made these for 40-50 years in varying numbers they are still highly sought after - in some circles.
Playing Texas Swing music? You might want something more like an EM-150 or an electric Fender like a mandocaster.
The Gibson F-5 template is the favorite among bluegrass players. And while it is true that it is played by musicians in other genres with some frequency it just isn't the accepted form in some genres. The Gibson F-5 sound just isn't what is expected in those types of music.
Now is all this objective or is it based on popular mythology? Is it all left up to "different horses for different courses"? I don't know.
I have heard folks say, "That ain't what Mr. Monroe played" nearly as many times as I have heard, "That's not what Earl played!" regarding mastertones. (Or similarly about Lester and the use of a D-28.) But I think we'll get over that some day. So in some circles a certain form of the instrument is expected - but not entirely without good reasoning. The F-5 design is a major adavncement over the mandolins that came before it. Best of the best - at one time.
So from where I sit, I still see a bunch of different mandolins being favoured by players of different types of music. And if I intend to play those types of music and not bring about barbs about my instrument choice, irrational as they could be, I am going to have a suitable instrument with me to play. Yeah I can play Irish tunes on a F-5 type of mandolin but I'll pick a center hole mandolin to go play an Irish session. Sure I can play bluegrass tunes on a solid body electric mandolin but I'll take an F-5 clone to a Bluegrass festival or jam.
I do not think of myself as an "accumulator" or collector or hoarder of mandolins as some might. I just want to have the right instrument to do a particular job. I do not just play one type of music.
The various mandolin genotypes are still out there. Which one you stumble across might depend on the tune being called. Tarantella anyone?
