OregonGal - Posted - 10/14/2014:  22:37:42

I just don't know what is wrong, but I can't seem to coordinate myself to do chop chords - and I have a small reach, so that can also be part of the problem. I either make too much noise or not enough; too much chop too late or not any chop at all. Is there some technique I am missing?  I even had someone try to show me how to do it and I still can't manifest it properly. Advise?

Rob Beck - Posted - 10/15/2014:  01:17:09

I think it comes down to practice.  I'm no expert by any means, but I do chop on a couple of songs we play in our band, and they are pretty inconsistent!  We do a cover of New Grass Revival's "Love Someone Like Me" and I found it helpful to listen to the sound Sam Bush makes and then compare it to mine.  Occasionally I would make the right noise, and it was just a case of trying to home in on what I was doing differently to make it work.  With me it was mostly around at what point I relaxed my grip on the strings to "deaden" them".  I now relax my grip at almost the same time as I hit the strings.

It might be worth posting a video of you playing some chop chords so that some of the experts here can take a look and maybe give you some better information than I can.

Good Luck :)

Rob

boringperson - Posted - 10/15/2014:  02:46:37

Rob's right - practice is the key (when isn't it?)

Perhaps this might help - the guitar-player in a bluegrass circle defines the rhythm by playing boom-chick, boom-chick, boom-chick. The boom is the bass note (on the one and the three of the four beats of the measure) and the chick is the strum (which comes on the two and the four.) The bass-player plays on the 'boom', you want to strike your mandolin chop on the 'chick', so it's a matter of getting very comfortable with that rhythm.

Here's an exercise to get that rhythm reinforced into your playing muscles, and you won't even need your mando - sit on the front of your chair with your feet on the floor and the palms of your hands on your knees then count, out loud, one to four slow but steady. Tap your left hand on your knee for the one, your right hand for the two, your left hand for the three, your right hand for the four. One, two, three, four; left right left right. If counting seems a little confusing then shout out 'boom-chick' and make sure the right hand goes down on the 'chick'. Keep on going until you're heartily sick of it then do it a bit more...

This will get the chop timing into the muscles of your right hand on the two and the four.

After you've been doing that for a while (by which I mean days or even weeks not two or three minutes) you can eliminate the left hand and just tap on the two and the four, keep counting out loud and tapping your right hand on the two and the four. Don't slap just tap, stay in control of your muscles and take time to teach them where the 'chick' is. You can do this anywhere and everywhere - even in the car at the traffic lights - slowly, slowly and take your time. Even experienced musicians do simple exercises like this - give yourself the best chance.

After a while you can pick up your mandolin and count one to four and chop on the two and four with your left hand just resting on the strings to keep them 'dead'. Keep counting nice and steady and keep it slow - eventually you can use a metronome to gradually increase your speed and then chop along with favorite records (with the strings kept 'dead') as Rob suggests. This will make it feel more 'real.'

Don't worry about getting the chords for a while; that percussive chop will take you a long way!

Rhythm is like any other part of music - it has to be learned and worked on and practiced. Ask any drummer!

Sorry all this looks so complicated but it's a lot easier to do than to describe. I promise that the investment of a wee bit of time and patience will pay off. I certainly hope it helps.

Mark

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 10/15/2014:  06:13:39

The above advice is good. It is a practice thing . Firstly you have to get the chords "down". If you are trying to think about the left and right hands at the same time it makes it more difficult. Do you have a metronome. If not get one and use it. The "chop" as pointed out above comes on the back beat. The Pa of an Oom-PA band.
Music theory interlude .........
Must "folk" songs are composed with two three four or five chords. Most common is the three chord format. An example in the key of G those chords are G,C and D. Often referred to as the 1,4 and 5 chords. The numbers relate to where in the scale of the key the song is played in are located.....
G=1 A=2 B=3 C=4D=5 E=6F=7G=1 This is referred to as Nashville Numbering ..........
The next most occurring chord in the key of G would be an Em or a six minor. You will at times see these written a Roman numerals . Enough said.
Here's the point. Practicing moving from one chord to another within a key helps your playing both with chords and with rhythm.
Set your metronome to a workable tempo and practice chopping going back and forth between two chords. G and C or what ever chords you want. But do choose two that normally "go" together ......... The 1 and the 4 or the one and the 5 in your favorite key to sing in would be a great place to start. Luck.... R/

boringperson - Posted - 10/15/2014:  07:14:44

Richard's advice about the importance of chords is super - your fingers need to be on auto pilot for those chord shapes (and remember that fiddle-type double stops can be just as effective for chops as full four note chords) but I'm going to argue the toss of the coin...

It may be something that applies to the individual but I think the rhythm is the first thing to get right if you're having trouble defining the crispness of your chop. It's very clear that Richard really knows his stuff and it's a pretty bad idea for me to start arguing with him but, even though getting those chord shapes is vital, I still reckon developing your rhythm muscles takes the edge.

Mark

ps okay Richard, your turn...

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 10/15/2014:  09:03:34

No argument here..... One hand washes the other. Everybody learns at their own pace in their own way.

milliondollarmandolin - Posted - 10/23/2014:  09:22:32

Don't do it in G at first--try moving it 4 frets up the neck to B where the frets are smaller.  

Count 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 AND. ((Say the AND's Loud). 

Chop on AND

bradlaird - Posted - 10/29/2014:  13:57:54

I see a lot of good valid advice posted here. I will toss in a few things which I teach my students:

1. I like to start 'em out listening to some good tracks which illustrate the kind of "chop" we are trying to emulate. If they can drill into the complex bluegrass sound and focus on the mandolin chop they will soon get it. I try to steer them to a track that does not have a lot of complex varieties of the chop. I have a IIIrd Tyme Out track that is perfect. I might also watch (with them) my video called Rhythm Basics (found here: bradleylaird.com/playthemandol...deos.html ) and discuss it with them.

2. Next, I get them just to pat their right hand on their right leg in that offbeat rhythm. Instrument in the case. Do that a while. If they can't do that there is no point moving forward. Talk about the role of the bass. If they don't listen to the bass they will have no reference for dropping in their off beats. Practice "legging" the bass notes. Go back and forth between bass and mandolin. Even use both hands and let right leg be mandolin and left be bass. I have even pulled out the congas and told them to play offbeats on that. Once they get the "off beat" they'll have it for life, and so long as they keep their ears open, they will be able to play it. It's fun to have them come for a mandolin lesson and play congas the whole time! I got my offbeat drilling in Junior High and High School tooting offbeats on those Sousa marches on a French horn. Doesn't matter how you get it, you have to get it.

3. Next, get the mandolin and just play what I call a "muted chop" with the left hand. No real chord, just left hand fingers flat on the strings lightly muting everything. Then, work on getting that pick going in the same rhythm they mastered on their leg.

4. Introduce two varieties of the pick stroke... a) a full, 4 string stroke and b) a shorter, bass side stroke on strings 4, 3 and maybe a little 2 here and there. Be able to do either on demand.

5. If chop chord is already "under their fingers" do as Andrew says above and get up around B to make the stretch less demanding. Learn to mute by relaxing the fingers just after the pick stroke. That can take some time to get. If student cannot make the stretch just do the same stuff using the 2245 A Major barre shape. You can do some respectable chopping with those barres too.

6. Finally, introduce rhythmic variations such as upstroke before the chop and other "doodles."

The actual chord forms, shapes, names, etc. have almost nothing to do with the more important aspects of rhythm, LISTENING, pick control and the timing of damping.

Bear in mind that this process can be stretched out over many weeks of lessons, but is something that is reviewed from step 1 at each lesson. I try not to kill an entire lesson with this stuff because most students do not see how valuable the skill really is. (Anyone who has played in a band for any length of time or has done some serious jamming knows that good rhythm chops are massively important!)

I hope these ideas help, even if you are your own teacher... and aren't we all, really?

OregonGal - Posted - 11/09/2014:  19:59:17

Thanks everyone. I did have the chop beats down, it was just getting the chop to sound out - knowing when to lift the fingers and how long to hold them down. I have a bit of a chop going now with all your great advice. The key was the letting the fingers just lie on the strings to mute them, and work from there into chords and relaxing the fingers a pinch later after hitting the strings with the pick. Very cool. Yes, lots of practice to get it to be automatic - but now I am on my way. Yes!

Donnie - Posted - 11/10/2014:  13:15:18

OregonGal, you are on the money with the "lift the fingers" I try to think about snare drum, back beat, stuff like that. Mute, both finger and right hand palm, all that works. Glad you are ON THE WAY, what a cool feeling when you know you can do it without thinking! Keep on keep'n on!

bradlaird - Posted - 11/10/2014:  14:28:04

Remember that the strings act like springs. When you press them down to the frets you have loaded the springs. All you have to do is stop pressing down which is different than lifting them. A completely different set of muscles on the underside of the forearm brings the fingertips down. A different set of muscles, on the back of the forearm, lifts them. You want to switch off the "pull down" muscles without switching on the "lift" muscles. Try to feel the spring action of the strings returning to their natural position as it presses up against the fingers. If you do it verrrrry slowly you can notice each step of the process. I talk more about this, and offbeats in general, over on my mandolin lesson site here: bradleylaird.com/playthemandol...n-11.html

Have fun and happy chopping!

OregonGal - Posted - 11/11/2014:  22:16:57

Thanks Brad - that video and explanation makes it even easier to understand the chop chord procedure. I really appreciate it it. Good explanation and visuals.

bradlaird - Posted - 11/12/2014:  13:20:06

OregonGal, you are very welcome.

Brad