Amus - Posted - 09/06/2013:  09:21:56

TSSN - Posted - 09/06/2013:  13:22:31

You're sure to get lots of advice on this one.  Be it vibrato on the violin or tremolo on the mandolin, I believe the key to learning it is speed:  do the steady DUDU slow at first (just like playing quarter notes), and then gradually do it faster and faster.  It will sound awful and clunky at first---just work through that.

Butch Baldassari's video instruction on this was excellent.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 09/06/2013:  14:58:31

Pick angle of attack on the string... very loose pick grip and wrist.... and like TSSN says DUDUDUDUDUDU ... work it with a metronome gradually gaining speed....... watch some videos on YouTube of McCoury .. Grisman... O'Brien ...... and work on it every day ... you will improove ..... if you record yor tremolo now and compare it to a recording in a month or so you will hear a difference...... Luck.. R/

abinigia - Posted - 09/06/2013:  21:03:00

It makes a difference to think about what you want the tremolo to do. Sometimes you might want the tremolo to be fast triplets but maybe you haven't thought of it in 3s before. If you've never thought about the timing of the tremolo, just expecting something fast will do the trick, you might be surprised if you work at it from a timing standpoint. Start slow and get the feel of what you want. Like everybody says, keep a loose wrist - but make time with it,. Don't think of it as just a flurry of notes. Sometimes the timing can be felt further up your arm, in you shoulder, anywhere - it's subtle, but you have to feel timing in your body somewhere for it to work.

Jim Yates - Posted - 09/07/2013:  07:41:14

I find that drinking lots of coffee is helpful.

Petimar - Posted - 09/07/2013:  11:43:13

Go to this page and see these three videos:

petimarpress.com/mando%20tips%...deos.html

Mando Tips: Tremolo Techniques
Mando Tips: Developing a Controlled Tremolo
Mando Tips: Banks of the Ohio Using Tremolo

This will give you a systematic way of practicing to get a controlled tremolo. Best of luck!

ErikForGod - Posted - 09/30/2013:  09:42:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

 

Pick angle of attack on the string... very loose pick grip and wrist.... and like TSSN says DUDUDUDUDUDU ... work it with a metronome gradually gaining speed....... watch some videos on YouTube of McCoury .. Grisman... O'Brien ...... and work on it every day ... you will improove ..... if you record yor tremolo now and compare it to a recording in a month or so you will hear a difference...... Luck.. R/

---

This is basically the advice I would have shared from my perspective. definately use a tremolo ALWAYS use a tremolo when you practice mandolin.

abinigia - Posted - 09/30/2013:  10:11:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by ErikForGod

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

 

Pick angle of attack on the string... very loose pick grip and wrist.... and like TSSN says DUDUDUDUDUDU ... work it with a metronome gradually gaining speed....... watch some videos on YouTube of McCoury .. Grisman... O'Brien ...... and work on it every day ... you will improove ..... if you record yor tremolo now and compare it to a recording in a month or so you will hear a difference...... Luck.. R/

---

This is basically the advice I would have shared from my perspective. definately use a tremolo ALWAYS use a tremolo when you practice mandolin.

---

I also emphasize that quite often a mandolin tremelo is triplets, not 4 count. Keep the pick going back and forth like shown above, but think: DUD UDU DUD UDU etc.

ErikForGod - Posted - 09/30/2013:  10:16:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ErikForGod

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

 

Pick angle of attack on the string... very loose pick grip and wrist.... and like TSSN says DUDUDUDUDUDU ... work it with a metronome gradually gaining speed....... watch some videos on YouTube of McCoury .. Grisman... O'Brien ...... and work on it every day ... you will improove ..... if you record yor tremolo now and compare it to a recording in a month or so you will hear a difference...... Luck.. R/

---

This is basically the advice I would have shared from my perspective. definately use a tremolo ALWAYS use a tremolo when you practice mandolin.

---

I also emphasize that quite often a mandolin tremelo is triplets, not 4 count. Keep the pick going back and forth like shown above, but think: DUD UDU DUD UDU etc.

---

I thought mandolin tremolo was a series of eight notes or 16th's?

abinigia - Posted - 09/30/2013:  14:49:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by ErikForGod

---

I thought mandolin tremolo was a series of eight notes or 16th's?

---

I can be. It's often triplets.

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 11/11/2013:  01:46:06

I would 'nt say a tremolo are triplets either, that implies there is a pulse on every third stroke, a pulse alternating down and up strokes at that. A tremolo is too fast for that. Maybe you mean 16th notes in groups of six? I learnt tremolo from my father in-laws correspondence books from the 30's, and I have a tremolo to be proud of. Loose wrist and loose pick between fingers leaving only a very short bit of the tip of the pick protruding. No anchoring oft he right hand, begin very slowly, counting 1 e + a 2 e + a, etc. Pulsating the beat.

m - Posted - 11/11/2013:  15:09:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amus

 

I've tried so many times to get the tremolo down to where its perfect. But everyone knows that before its perfect you have to start out easy on it. I've seen so many videos and heard so many different things but no matter how hard I try, I can't get it down. Is there any way I can do it without having so much trouble?

---

TSSN I would argue you point regarding "just like quarter notes" , they would all be downstrokes. But anyhow this lady lays it out pretty clearly. youtube.com/watch?v=XxvD41asKC...690ABD9B3

abinigia - Posted - 11/12/2013:  14:59:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry George

 

I would 'nt say a tremolo are triplets either, that implies there is a pulse on every third stroke, a pulse alternating down and up strokes at that. A tremolo is too fast for that. Maybe you mean 16th notes in groups of six? I learnt tremolo from my father in-laws correspondence books from the 30's, and I have a tremolo to be proud of. Loose wrist and loose pick between fingers leaving only a very short bit of the tip of the pick protruding. No anchoring oft he right hand, begin very slowly, counting 1 e + a 2 e + a, etc. Pulsating the beat.

---

Listen to a lot of bluegrass and you'll hear it. Triplets are one way a tremelo can be fast (3 notes to a beat instead of 2. Four notes is often impossibly fast). Better perhaps to think of them in groups of six rather than 3 if thinking about the pulse. The pulse is on the one and 3 beats and always on a down stroke that way.

Philphool - Posted - 11/12/2013:  18:16:51

I've listened to LOTS of bluegrass but I've NEVER recognized that anyone was using a series of triplets in tremolo.  Can you give us a link to a specific example of this?   Youtube should have lots of examples if you're right.  I'd really like to deconstruct this on a SPECIFIC tune.

Phil

abinigia - Posted - 11/12/2013:  19:12:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Philphool

 

I've listened to LOTS of bluegrass but I've NEVER recognized that anyone was using a series of triplets in tremolo.  Can you give us a link to a specific example of this?   Youtube should have lots of examples if you're right.  I'd really like to deconstruct this on a SPECIFIC tune.

Phil

---

Just so it's clear, I'm only saying it is one vibrato technique that seems overlooked when people are trying to learn vibrato in general. I'm not saying it's how it should be done or prove a big point or anything (although I use it a lot). Lots and lots of vibrato is, in fact, in 4. But it can be a breakthrough for someone having trouble trying to learn vibrato, and hardly anyone mentions it. Plus, it's a good sound. Good players sometimes flow between 3 time and 4 time.

A quick example I think, since you asked (and I know I could spend hours trying to gather examples), might be Bill Monroe's "Evening Prayer Blues" on "Master Of Bluegrass". Listen to the first phrase. The second phrase is even clearer. Slow it down with Transcribe! or another program and you'll be able to count it.

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 11/12/2013:  19:51:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

 

Better perhaps to think of them in groups of six rather than 3 if thinking about the pulse.

---

I agree with this.

But the tremolo stroke is not triplets..!  Because this implies....DUD, UDU. As you can see the accent is on alternate Down and up strokes. Where as the tremolo is much easily executed by focusing on the feeling of a series of down strokes, and that will be in groups of even numbers.eg..in 4s..DUDU or in 6s..DUDUDU and in 8s.. DUDUDUDU.....etc.

abinigia - Posted - 11/12/2013:  20:41:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry George

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

 

Better perhaps to think of them in groups of six rather than 3 if thinking about the pulse.

---

I agree with this.

 

But the tremolo stroke is not triplets..!  Because this implies....DUD, UDU. As you can see the accent is on alternate Down and up strokes. Where as the tremolo is much easily executed by focusing on the feeling of a series of down strokes, and that will be in groups of even numbers.eg..in 4s..DUDU or in 6s..DUDUDU and in 8s.. DUDUDUDU.....etc.

---

Yeah, 6s describes it best, like you said DUDUDU. I'll stop calling it triplets. But the distinction holds between dividing  2 beats by 6 complared to 1 beat by 4 or 2 beats by 8.

mojohand40 - Posted - 11/13/2013:  04:40:46

My advice on learning tremolo:

1) Don't plant your pinky.

2) Keep your wrist and hand loose. Tension will ruin it and is not necessary.

3) Experiment with angle of attack of the pick on the strings. Experiment a bit with picking hand grip on the pick. If you are having a real hard time with tremolo, it's your picking hand technique/position in general.

4) Most Important (IMO):  "Fake it until you Make it".  In other words, just keep playing tunes with a little tremolo here and there and relax. Just play the thing and play tremolos and eventually you will have a good tremolo without even realizing how you got there. Seriously.  My advice to learning vibrato on a fiddle is basically the same: "Fake it until you Make it". 

Sometimes over analyzing a technique will just kill it. I've seen too many players who can play great, smooth tremolo and not be able to explain how, and too many who play "eh, so-so" tremolo but can verbally expound on it for hours.

Edited by - mojohand40 on 11/13/2013 04:41:48

abinigia - Posted - 11/13/2013:  08:45:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by mojohand40



 

4) Most Important (IMO):  "Fake it until you Make it". 

I agree. The hardest thing to fake though is coming out of a tremelo straight into a melody note, because you want the timing to be right and, at the same time, you want your pick going in the right direction.

mojohand40 - Posted - 11/14/2013:  04:40:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mojohand40



 

4) Most Important (IMO):  "Fake it until you Make it". 

 

I agree. The hardest thing to fake though is coming out of a tremelo straight into a melody note, because you want the timing to be right and, at the same time, you want your pick going in the right direction.

---

Yeah, but it still will become second nature and you'll do it without thinking about it over time. If you ARE thinking about it everytime you tremolo, you'll hamper your playing.  It's like crosspicking: sometimes it comes natural while you are playing something, if you slow down and analyze it, you'll have a tough time doing it as smooth until you just shut off that part of your brain and "do it"..  at first it may not sound perfect, but over time, months maybe a year; you'll nail it it without thinking. ...and then if you try to analyze it,, you'll find it hard to do.

Petimar - Posted - 11/20/2013:  10:58:48

youtube.com/watch?v=SFVWVghRzGE

youtube.com/watch?v=a_kXF7_tqds

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 11/27/2013:  13:45:46

triplets are used on a waltz or 6/8, only rarely in 4/4

Philphool - Posted - 11/27/2013:  14:44:49

Call it what you want.  I still have never heard temolo expressed as triplets in any music including waltzes.

And I've never heard any major player or teacher suggest that.

abinigia - Posted - 11/27/2013:  15:16:17

quote:

Originally posted by Philphool

Call it what you want.  I still have never heard temolo expressed as triplets in any music including waltzes.

And I've never heard any major player or teacher suggest that.

Well, okay. I'm not sure why you resist it so much. Sounds like you're trying to put me in my place or something. As mentioned above it's easier to count the pulses in six. I probably use this kind of tremelo more than most (it would seem). It's just another trick one might have in his bag of mando tricks is all. Plus, for those struggling with tremelo, which is a lot of what these discussions are about, I think it's easier to do than the more common (but great, and major!) dividing beats by  4s.

Did you listen to Bill Monroe "Evening Prayer Blues"? There are other examples out there. Whatever you call it that's all I'm talking about.

Respectfully,

Brian

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/01/2013:  03:09:23

Most slow songs in bluegrass genre are a waltz so that's where you use groups of 3.

The fast songs are in 4/4 therefore it's groups of 2.

By the way most bluegrass musicians play by ear and cannot read music notation.

flyod - Posted - 12/01/2013:  09:56:08

Hay there. I am just starting out with this also, some days have it down almost spot on, and others it is a clunker. But what I do, is before starting out on a play, I do a quick practice going slowly up and down the cords about 5 or 6 times and that seems to help. But like everyone else, has said, it all takes practice.
just hang in there.

Philphool - Posted - 12/01/2013:  11:05:45

quote:

Originally posted by Philphool

Call it what you want.  I still have never heard temolo expressed as triplets in any music including waltzes.

 ==============

Well, okay. I'm not sure why you resist it so much......

Did you listen to Bill Monroe "Evening Prayer Blues"? There are other examples out there. Whatever you call it that's all I'm talking about.

Respectfully,

Brian

I hear you.  I'm not : "resisting".  I just don't hear it, .... honestly, I don't.  Yes, I listened to EPB. 

If you hear it and it helps, great.

Phil

abinigia - Posted - 12/01/2013:  14:04:11

quote:

Originally posted by Philphool

quote:

Originally posted by Philphool

Call it what you want.  I still have never heard temolo expressed as triplets in any music including waltzes.

 ==============

Well, okay. I'm not sure why you resist it so much......

Did you listen to Bill Monroe "Evening Prayer Blues"? There are other examples out there. Whatever you call it that's all I'm talking about.

Respectfully,

Brian

I hear you.  I'm not : "resisting".  I just don't hear it, .... honestly, I don't.  Yes, I listened to EPB. 

If you hear it and it helps, great.

Phil

The reason I say "resisting" is because you seem to disbelieve such a tremelo can exist. Just tap your foot and pick 3 times instead of 4. Six times instead of 8, etc. That's it. It's not whether one hears it or not, it objectively exists, is mathamatically permissible, and it's a useful variation. It's also not only played on waltzes although, yes, it's used there often because of the slow to medium tempo.

TSSN - Posted - 12/04/2013:  20:13:58

quote:

Originally posted by m

TSSN I would argue you point regarding "just like quarter notes" , they would all be downstrokes. But anyhow this lady lays it out pretty clearly. youtube.com/watch?v=XxvD41asKC...690ABD9B3

I just realized that I missed this.  You are right, I should have said eighth notes.  (Though having said that, I do tend to play quarter notes with the same DUDU approach, especially on a faster tune that I know I will be playing eventually at 120 BPM, if not more...  This was at the suggestion of my first instructor, who preached "...unrelenting down-up-down-up..." for pick motion.)

Jim Yates - Posted - 12/04/2013:  20:42:34

I would agree with a steady down-up except for three exceptions: triplets and tremolo or fast sixteenth notes.  Quarter notes on the beat are hit with all down strokes and you miss the string on the up stroke.  Quarter notes off the beat are hit with an up-stroke and you miss the string on the down stroke, but your pick keeps going down on the beat and up off the beat.

If you play Red Haired Boy with "eighth quarter eighth eighth eighth...", your pick would go "down up down up down up...", but would hit the strings on "down up up down up..." and miss the second "down".

Sometimes I do like to use all down strokes on a slow or medium tempo song.  I'm not sure, but that's what some of Bill Monroe's playing sounds like.

TSSN - Posted - 12/05/2013:  04:16:01

Hey Jim.  I agree with what you said.  There are exceptions.  And---for very slow songs , like Southwind, down-up-down-up on quarter notes just feels wrong.

I prefer Butch Baldassari's instructional materials, and I think what got me in trouble here, was my interpretation of a part of one of his videos.  I can't find it online, and I don't know how to do a capture of those few seconds to make it clearer.  At any rate, in his demonstration of tremolo, he starts out by playing slowly (quarter notes, but with the DUDU motion), and then just gradually increases the speed of that motion.

ErikForGod - Posted - 12/07/2013:  03:26:21

I always thought of tremolo as a series of sixteenth notes played in a steady stream......

hizaleus - Posted - 05/14/2014:  08:05:37

I absolutely do not believe that tremolo is simply fast down/up picking.  The common instruction to learn tremolo by increasing speed of down/up picking may result in stumbling upon actual tremolo, or producing an imitation.  

The way I learned tremolo (over 40 years ago, initially on guitar) is as follows: Tense the forearm until the hand starts to quiver.  Keep practicing this until you can initiate that quiver at will without the tension.  Then apply it to a string or string pair.  Later you have to develop the ability to start and stop the tremolo at will, switch strings with tremolo, and use tremolo on more than one string or string pair.  Resting the heel of the hand behind the bridge helps isolate the movement and discourages slipping into "strumming" ( mostly forearm motion.)

Along the way you will learn to create crescendo and decrescendo and other variations in volume and speed that fully use tremolo to best advantage.  That purring and expressive sound is what distinguishes real tremolo from just fast picking.  However, though fast picking does not give you authentic sounding tremolo, tremolo can be used for very fast picking runs if the left hand can keep up.  I believe Bill Monroe did this, with distinctive results.

If your "tremolo" is easier with floppy picks, you are definitely NOT doing real tremolo.  Tremolo is a rubbing, not strumming motion.  I have found that picks with a rounded tip facilitate tremolo, especially smooth transition between single note picking and tremolo.  The rounded tip can come from using the upper corners of regular picks, or various picks with that kind of shape, or from a thick, contoured pick (e.g. Wegen Gypsy Jazz pick.) I much prefer the tone of a more pointy, but thick and rounded pick to the blunt profile, but that is a matter of taste.

abinigia - Posted - 05/16/2014:  09:28:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by hizaleus

 

I absolutely do not believe that tremolo is simply fast down/up picking.  The common instruction to learn tremolo by increasing speed of down/up picking may result in stumbling upon actual tremolo, or producing an imitation.  

The way I learned tremolo (over 40 years ago, initially on guitar) is as follows: Tense the forearm until the hand starts to quiver.  Keep practicing this until you can initiate that quiver at will without the tension.  Then apply it to a string or string pair.  Later you have to develop the ability to start and stop the tremolo at will, switch strings with tremolo, and use tremolo on more than one string or string pair.  Resting the heel of the hand behind the bridge helps isolate the movement and discourages slipping into "strumming" ( mostly forearm motion.)

Along the way you will learn to create crescendo and decrescendo and other variations in volume and speed that fully use tremolo to best advantage.  That purring and expressive sound is what distinguishes real tremolo from just fast picking.  However, though fast picking does not give you authentic sounding tremolo, tremolo can be used for very fast picking runs if the left hand can keep up.  I believe Bill Monroe did this, with distinctive results.

If your "tremolo" is easier with floppy picks, you are definitely NOT doing real tremolo.  Tremolo is a rubbing, not strumming motion.  I have found that picks with a rounded tip facilitate tremolo, especially smooth transition between single note picking and tremolo.  The rounded tip can come from using the upper corners of regular picks, or various picks with that kind of shape, or from a thick, contoured pick (e.g. Wegen Gypsy Jazz pick.) I much prefer the tone of a more pointy, but thick and rounded pick to the blunt profile, but that is a matter of taste.

---

I pretty much agree with all you say. The preceeding comments are all about mechanics. In how you describe it though, one can understand it as not necessarily locked into one timing but is fluid and expressive. Rubbing, not strumming... that's an interesting way to say it.

Victoria - Posted - 07/01/2014:  15:39:38

Try this video Banjo Ben did on tremolo. It helped me when I was learning how to do it. Might do you some good, too!  Good luck!!! You can get the video free off his website if you sighn up for the three day trial membership, and in those three days, you get FREE access to all videos. I tried it. Helped me learn some of the tunes I had to learn..... For some reason my computer won't let me copy and paste a link to the website, but you can Google Banjo Ben, and his website will come up. Have fun, and wish u good luck!! 

youtube.com/watch?v=qbJ5Z7KcOpg

Edited by - Victoria on 07/01/2014 15:50:13

Banduria Princess - Posted - 07/06/2014:  15:22:15

Well, if your heart is in music let your heart play for it. Feel the music . . . you can see your fingers are working. I have the same situation too. How many times I tried and practiced it leads me to have my own way of TREMOLO. I believe that we have our own way of plucking and doing the tremolo. Work hard!

phiddlepicker - Posted - 07/06/2014:  15:57:16

Long ago I went into the highlands and watched the seizure activity of woodland creatures, nature's perfect tremolos, seeking to emulate their patterns in my fingertips certain that I would someday be the mando king.

That was really boring though so I just practiced until it felt and sounded right.