Stark - Posted - 11/26/2012:  17:50:13

Earlier this year I purchased an Eastman md504 oval hole A-style mandolin and I love it.  My love for bluegrass has also increased a lot and I am currently working on my chop chords.

I've read in other places on this forum people saying things like "you won't have a chop chord with an oval hole".  Does anyone out there play chop chords and bluegrass with an oval hole mandolin?  Should I even be trying to do chop chords on this thing?  I'm a beginner so I'm not really confident about my chop chord sound anyway and I would like to know if I'm wasting my time aiming for good chops on an oval hole.  Thanks for your help.

TI_USER - Posted - 11/26/2012:  18:04:22

It all depends on the mandolin.  There have been lots of players throughout the years that have been very successful playing on oval hole mandolins.  I played a 1924 Gibson A model for 10 years in a working band before I ever owned a F model.  Jimmy Martin had the mandolin players in his band use his Gibson F4.  Red Rector was a fine Bluegrass mandolinist who used a Gibson oval hole his entire career.  As with any F model, a lot depends on the power and volume of the mandolin and your own skill in getting the most out of it.  While the overwhelming majority of Bluegrass mandolinists prefer a F hole model, don't listen to anyone that tells you that you can't play Bluegrass with a good oval hole mandolin.  You certainly are NOT wasting your time.

Stark - Posted - 11/26/2012:  18:16:04

Thanks TI USER

Ben Venuti - Posted - 11/26/2012:  18:23:58

I would add Andy Statman to that list.

My opinion is "yes you can play bluegrass on a oval holed mandolin"! The problem with some people is that they expect bluegrass to be so stylized and to me it seems so much the same,so much the same, soooooo much the same! Those old bands that started the thing off were all quite different from one another. Monroe, Martin, Jim and Jesse.Reno and Smiley etc.( I could go on) were all pretty unique. Then there are those that think Railroad Earth is bluegrass.  F Holes can cut through rude banjo players much better than an oval hole that is a fact. Face it, banjos can be LOUD and a great many banjo players are attracted to it because it is LOUD and they play LOUD! They don't care about the music, they like noise. Many drummers also have this disease. If you can play with other musicians that actually care about about the music --and you shouldn't bother with any other kind--then there is no problem playing an oval holed mandolin in any group. Chop Away!

Edited by - Ben Venuti on 11/26/2012 18:28:44

Leopold Cat - Posted - 11/26/2012:  21:58:54

I bet that your eastman oval hole will have a better chop than a lot of the lower end f styles. I have a kentucky oval hole that has a pretty good chop to it, especially compared to alot of the cheaper f styles I've picked up in music stores and played.

Jim Yates - Posted - 11/27/2012:  16:49:08

I played bluegrass for several years with an oval hole mandolin.  It was much louder and projected better than the F5 style mandolin owned by our guitar player.  I did buy an Eastman 605 eventually, which was a better match for the banjo.

Mandolin Ant - Posted - 11/28/2012:  06:22:21

I did buy an Eastman 605 eventually, which was a better match for the banjo. 

********************

Why was it a better match? Was it out of tune?

Ha ha! Just kidding to any banjo pickers that might be out there. I couldn't resist!

Kristibob - Posted - 11/28/2012:  15:34:32

Okay - I'm pretty new at this stuff...but I get so darned fed up when people say you can't play a certain type of music on a certain type of instrument. Now, I know I can't play the William Tell Overture on a tuba and have it sound the same as if an orchestra did it, but I'm not talking about reaches quite that long. I think that, as long as you're learning and having a good time and enjoying the music, play it on whatever instrument you wish! I wouldn't let anyone tell me I can' t play anything on my mandolins...if I like it, I'll play it, regardless of oval or F holes, A model or F model...so many seem to be such music snobs nowadays. Heck, if you play it and you like it, ignore everyone else and do what you enjoy! I will now fall off my soapbox....lol

Andah1Andah2 - Posted - 11/28/2012:  17:00:23

I have been playing for only half a year, and also 3 yrs on fiddle. I have an A style mando. I can tell you that if my chop doesn't sound good, it's because of my skill and time put in, and not my instrument. Same on fiddle. If you have a decent instrument (and your Eastman is) that's set up well, it takes quite awhile to get to the point where it's the instrument that's holding you back.

mandogryl - Posted - 11/29/2012:  07:36:11

I used to play BG on an F-4 style. It chopped very well. The only drawback with an over hole is that it is only 12 frets to the body, so to speak, instead of 15. The other thing might be tradition, which Bluegrass seems to be quite steeped in; Most folks expect you to be playing an F-holed instrument. The mandolinist for The Darlings used an F-4 for quite some time.

Jim Yates - Posted - 11/29/2012:  10:50:23

quote:

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Originally posted by Kristibob

Okay - I'm pretty new at this stuff...but I get so darned fed up when people say you can't play a certain type of music on a certain type of instrument. Now, I know I can't play the William Tell Overture on a tuba and have it sound the same as if an orchestra did it, but I'm not talking about reaches quite that long. I think that, as long as you're learning and having a good time and enjoying the music, play it on whatever instrument you wish! I wouldn't let anyone tell me I can' t play anything on my mandolins...if I like it, I'll play it, regardless of oval or F holes, A model or F model...so many seem to be such music snobs nowadays. Heck, if you play it and you like it, ignore everyone else and do what you enjoy! I will now fall off my soapbox....lol

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I played for many years on an old bowl back oval hole instrumant.  I learned my first bluegrass and blues licks on that old mandolin.  You're right.  If it has decent action and stays in tune, you can learn and play on any mandolin.

Ben Venuti - Posted - 11/29/2012:  19:51:35

Back in the early 70's in Southwest Virginia there was a band that would show up at the festivals and the mandolin player had a old Vega bowlback that you could hear across a field! One could make a case that that area is the heart and soul of Bluegrass but people weren't so jaded then. The lines between bluegrass and oldtime, for instance, weren't very well defined and you could easily stumble on a Tommy Jerrell and a Kenny Baker trading licks in a parking lot. Since we were in fact hillbillies living in the place where bluegrass actually grows we didn't have F5 Gibsons or Gibson Granada banjos or d28's--that stuff cost money, which we didn't have and actually didn't even know anybody who had! We had what we could get which was anything with strings and we played them-- usually hand me downs! That was considered acceptable. The professional bands had that stuff. Lester and Earl and Bill and maybe that guy who had gone up North and got a job at an auto plant but an fstyle mandolin cost more than any amount of haybales you could lift or fence wire you could string! I had an old friend and neighbor named Herb Pitzer that had his own style of banjo playing and could enter the bluegrass banjo contest and win a prize. The next festival he'd enter the oldtime banjo contest and win a prize. Thing was he didn't change a thing,he played the way he played! I had an old A-0 Gibson that I had found in Pittsburgh for $150 and it was the best mandolin around, I still have it,it's beat and ugly but it still plays wonderfully.. If you find old bluegrass albums from the 60's/70's or before,like on the "Rebel" label or something made by semi pro/ you've never heard of bands often they will be pictured with what we would consider sub- standard instruments by today's standards.
By the way --Bluegrass isn't THAT steeped in tradition-- it's only about 60 years old. Quite a few of the "inventors" of bluegrass are still performing! That's hardly a tradition! Jessie McReynolds is only about 20 years older than MC Hammer--we could talk about the merits of traditional Rap vs. HipHop--not much difference!

TI_USER - Posted - 12/01/2012:  12:36:27

If you want to hear a modern example of someone using a oval hole mandolin for Bluegrass, look no further than Don Rigsby playing his Red Diamond white face oval hole mandolin on the Rock County "Solid Rock" album.  That mandolin has a better and stronger voice on it than his F style Red Diamond.  Every time I hear that album, its' tone and volume amaze me.

ErikForGod - Posted - 09/16/2013:  08:46:10

oval holed mandolins will work jezzz fine for bluegrass. It'll be a bit diff sound but it will work. I actually really like the F-4 sound, however playing out of the key of "B" up the neck is a bit crowded. Listen to Roland White with the "Kentucky Colonels" or some of Jimmy Martins Sunny Mtn Boy's recordings....you'll hear some oval-holed mandolins being used. You won't have a tradtional "Monroe" sound but it will still work...they still cut and have a thick enough chop to be heard usually.

m - Posted - 09/16/2013:  20:54:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristibob

 

Okay - I'm pretty new at this stuff...but I get so darned fed up when people say you can't play a certain type of music on a certain type of instrument. Now, I know I can't play the William Tell Overture on a tuba and have it sound the same as if an orchestra did it, but I'm not talking about reaches quite that long. I think that, as long as you're learning and having a good time and enjoying the music, play it on whatever instrument you wish! I wouldn't let anyone tell me I can' t play anything on my mandolins...if I like it, I'll play it, regardless of oval or F holes, A model or F model...so many seem to be such music snobs nowadays. Heck, if you play it and you like it, ignore everyone else and do what you enjoy! I will now fall off my soapbox....lol

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You have a pretty strong opinion when as you admit that you are pretty new at this stuff. Nothing like the reverse snobbery of the un initiated.

Jim Yates - Posted - 09/17/2013:  08:17:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by m

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristibob

 

Okay - I'm pretty new at this stuff...but I get so darned fed up when people say you can't play a certain type of music on a certain type of instrument. Now, I know I can't play the William Tell Overture on a tuba and have it sound the same as if an orchestra did it, but I'm not talking about reaches quite that long. I think that, as long as you're learning and having a good time and enjoying the music, play it on whatever instrument you wish! I wouldn't let anyone tell me I can' t play anything on my mandolins...if I like it, I'll play it, regardless of oval or F holes, A model or F model...so many seem to be such music snobs nowadays. Heck, if you play it and you like it, ignore everyone else and do what you enjoy! I will now fall off my soapbox....lol

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You have a pretty strong opinion when as you admit that you are pretty new at this stuff. Nothing like the reverse snobbery of the un initiated.

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I see no reverse snobbery in Kristibob's post.  He admits that he is new to "this stuff", but makes some good points just the same.  A great instrument will make a good player sound even better, but a playable instrument can sound great in the hands of a great player.  I've mentioned on the flat picking hangout that there's a local kid who puts all us Martin players in our places on his old $350 Harmony Sovereign.  He also owns an Ibanez A model mandolin that sounds mighty fine in his hands.

Listen to David Grisman and Tony Rice play Vintage Gintage Blues on cheap beginners' instruments.

Kristibob - I agree with most of what you say, except for, "ignore everyone else and do what you enjoy."  Do what you enjoy for sure, but don't ignore everyone else; learn from them.

Ben Venuti - Posted - 09/17/2013:  10:28:29

I don't think he was commenting on anything stated in this thread but on snobbery encountered somewhere else. I've experienced it myself. It's part of our culture. Someone spends the big bucks and feels that he has purchased a right to look down upon others that have something less than he does. This same person may feel diminished when someone trumps him and someone will, if that's any consolation. Just follow what's happening in the America's Cup --Which is a nice analogy----All the money in the world ( which is pretty much what Ellison spent) is getting beaten by pure talent! You can play anything if you have the chops and can you pull it off. No one is going to have much to say about it if the music is good.
There is enough evidence to support oval holed mandolins performing bluegrass ---Jimmy Martin's Sunny Mt. Boys, Red Rector, Andy Statman for many years. The problem is when a form becomes so stylized that it becomes stagnant. The early big name bluegrass bands that are considered "traditional" by the traditionalists today were really quite different from each other in their day. Bill may have kicked it off and a great many of Bluegrass's early musicians may have spent some time under Monroe's tutelage but they all did go their separate ways and clearly did their own thing. It was all experimental for those early performers and that is something dangerously lacking today. Even "New Grass" performed by the likes of Sam Bush or John Mc Kuen had it's beginning in the early 70's ---that's 40 years ago or older now than bluegrass was when they thought it necessary to "buck the tradition"! Music is constantly evolving and there are people that for some reason don't want it to so they try and limit the parameters---Bill played an F5 so everyone has to have an F5?